225s

#21

All experiments are good.

The old RA1s were pretty good all the way to the cords. That would get you thru 5 race weekends easy. That’s about $125/weekend. Get me a tire solution that can do that and I’ll lead the march to Carter’s house.

#22

[quote=“Ranger” post=64559]All experiments are good.

The old RA1s were pretty good all the way to the cords. That would get you thru 5 race weekends easy. That’s about $125/weekend. Get me a tire solution that can do that and I’ll lead the march to Carter’s house.[/quote]

We don’t have those tires anymore though. Granted I haven’t run these new ones (will next week) but everyone keeps saying they don’t last 5 weekends anymore.

I am concerned about rolling over the tire enough to cord the outside. 3.5-4 deg. of negative camber should be more than enough to get our little cars to plow around without cording the outside edge.

If there is enough chassis flex, or the tire sidewall is flappy (technical term, lol) we might need more, which can get expensive.

Trust me, I’m in it for what is cheap. I would imagine this would mean getting the tires at $145-150 each and lasting the 3-4 weekends will be the tipping point. We’d have to come up with some sort of attack plan to adjust the car in between testing sessions and have a couple of cars there to go back to back. I have a few ideas, but would welcome input from others. Again, you can also reference the SM guys this year and see how they are liking the new setup. They’d probably even be a better benchmark than what I was planning to do.

#23

It has been told by Toyo that last year the was a different batch (date codes) of 205’s…they are gone now.

The new tires are just like the old tires you guys are referring to, but something that some of you are forgetting or not realizing is that you get faster every season and with that the tires wear out quicker. If this is not happening then you might want to get a little more seat time…

Also what Michael Osbourne said a page or so ago may come to fruition in the near future, but it will be NASA’s call, not Toyo’s. Testing is not done yet and won’t be for a while so please be patient and brush up on those set up and driving skills.

#24

When you say “all gone” does that mean all gone from Toyo’s warehouse, but still at distributor’s stores, or all gone from the face of the earth?

#25

[quote=“philstireservice” post=64567]It has been told by Toyo that last year the was a different batch (date codes) of 205’s…they are gone now.

The new tires are just like the old tires you guys are referring to, but something that some of you are forgetting or not realizing is that you get faster every season and with that the tires wear out quicker. If this is not happening then you might want to get a little more seat time…
[/quote]
That would be terrific if the new RA1s were just like the old RA1s. I’m a huge optimist, but I gotta tell ya, I’m going to be slow to go along with that theory. I’ll believe it (and be quite pleased) when the evidence starts rolling in.

Re. We’re getting faster. Lol, not me. Not even close.

#26

[quote=“Foglght” post=64563]

Trust me, I’m in it for what is cheap. I would imagine this would mean getting the tires at $145-150 each and lasting the 3-4 weekends will be the tipping point.[/quote]
That kind of incremental cost savings is even close to being worthwhile vs. putting the whole series thru the goatscrew of a tire change.

#27

face of the earth

#28

You guys turned my very plausible if well supported 225 argument into a brand argument again. The heat cycle issue kind of kills the idea but maybe not all heat cycles are created equal. My de4 instructor at autobahn claimed he had done 200 autocrosses and a dozen track weekends on one set of star specs. Is a autocross heat equivalent to a track heat cycle? Maybe we will just drive faster with 225s and put as much heat into the tire or maybe we won’t and we will get a few extra cycles out of them.

The maximum slip angle of the wider tires will be lower and since most of the heat is generated by the deformation of the tire and not the friction against the road surface the tire temps should be lower.

My hoosier A6s that I bought heat cycled from tire rack and then did a half dozen autoxs on in 2007 were given to my brother when I sold my miata. We have done at least 20 on track heat cycles since then. They are 225/45/15s on a standard non S mini, and I believe that because it is so much tire for such a little underpowered car that that is why they still have life left in them. They pick up more rubber than is burned off most of the time.

If we are going to talk about brands I would still like a 180 treadwear rule. I know some of you are worried about showing up for a race and realizing the tires you have aren’t the latest greatest but with only a few tires in contention for the best 180 and above tire the best tire compound shouldn’t change that often.

#29

Phil, would you mind sharing the dates to avoid, in case someone has a couple laying around?

#30

[quote=“philstireservice” post=64567]It has been told by Toyo that last year the was a different batch (date codes) of 205’s…they are gone now.

The new tires are just like the old tires you guys are referring to, but something that some of you are forgetting or not realizing is that you get faster every season and with that the tires wear out quicker. If this is not happening then you might want to get a little more seat time…

Also what Michael Osbourne said a page or so ago may come to fruition in the near future, but it will be NASA’s call, not Toyo’s. Testing is not done yet and won’t be for a while so please be patient and brush up on those set up and driving skills.[/quote]

Really depends on the way you drive. Many drivers overdrive their cars and overheat the tires, causing them to be slower. More track time allows some to dial it down a notch and actually get faster, which in turn has tires actually lasting longer.

This is especially true with guys who love to throw the car into the corner and sort it all out mid-corner. One can easily destroy a set of tires like that.

And Ranger, I’m talking about the best shave you can get, which is about 2/32 which gives you max performance for a shortened period, which in SM terms gets you one weekend (4 real heat cycles). Usually, the 2/32 shaving costs more.

It is somewhat interesting that now SM has gone to a different brand tire, now there are rumors of a new mythical tire that will compete.

Sure as hell am not going to ask the Hoosier guys to show up and do something nice for the group if this is already the attitude.

#31

[quote=“Ranger” post=64569]I’m a huge optimist, but I gotta tell ya, I’m going to be slow to go along with that theory.
[/quote]

+1, I’ll believe it when I see it. The toyo engineer I spoke to said they aren’t told much by Japan.

#32

Funny how that when 180 sts tires are brought up folks say they will chunk, not last etc,…see plenty of e30
s with spec e30 set ups runningthem at Chump car etc…

Al

#33

[quote=“Foglght” post=64577]
Sure as hell am not going to ask the Hoosier guys to show up and do something nice for the group if this is already the attitude.[/quote]It’s not about “do(ing) something nice” and it’s not about “attitude”. From Hoosier’s perspective is putting resources into attempting to develop potential new markets and from our perspective is weighing cost savings vs. hassle.

It would be easy to underestimate how much hassle it would be to go to another tire. There’d many dozen man-hours of testing, hundreds of man-hours of debate, drivers pissed off when people don’t agree with them, drivers pissed off because they don’t like the eventual tire transition rule, drivers pissed off because after a few weekends they’re convinced it was a bad idea…it’s great big can of worms. To be worth all that, the cost/weekend savings needs to be significant.

#34

[quote=“Ranger” post=64580][quote=“Foglght” post=64577]
Sure as hell am not going to ask the Hoosier guys to show up and do something nice for the group if this is already the attitude.[/quote]It’s not about “do(ing) something nice” and it’s not about “attitude”. From Hoosier’s perspective is putting resources into attempting to develop potential new markets and from our perspective is weighing cost savings vs. hassle.

It would be easy to underestimate how much hassle it would be to go to another tire. There’d many dozen man-hours of testing, hundreds of man-hours of debate, drivers pissed off when people don’t agree with them, drivers pissed off because they don’t like the eventual tire transition rule, drivers pissed off because after a few weekends they’re convinced it was a bad idea…it’s great big can of worms. To be worth all that, the cost/weekend savings needs to be significant.[/quote]

Yeah, it actually is about doing something nice. They are willing to show up with free tires and let people try this stuff out in as controlled of an experiment as we can put together.

I’m not even convinced myself it is a good idea.

Half of the point is to even see if they are a viable tire. Always seems to be a bunch of grumbling about nothing. Anyway, I’ll drop it. No way I’m calling them now.

#35

Phil, would you mind sharing the dates to avoid, in case someone has a couple laying around?[/quote]

I really have no idea…haven’t seen one in many months

#36

[quote=“turbo329is” post=64574]You guys turned my very plausible if well supported 225 argument into a brand argument again. The heat cycle issue kind of kills the idea but maybe not all heat cycles are created equal. My de4 instructor at autobahn claimed he had done 200 autocrosses and a dozen track weekends on one set of star specs. Is a autocross heat equivalent to a track heat cycle? Maybe we will just drive faster with 225s and put as much heat into the tire or maybe we won’t and we will get a few extra cycles out of them.

The maximum slip angle of the wider tires will be lower and since most of the heat is generated by the deformation of the tire and not the friction against the road surface the tire temps should be lower.

My hoosier A6s that I bought heat cycled from tire rack and then did a half dozen autoxs on in 2007 were given to my brother when I sold my miata. We have done at least 20 on track heat cycles since then. They are 225/45/15s on a standard non S mini, and I believe that because it is so much tire for such a little underpowered car that that is why they still have life left in them. They pick up more rubber than is burned off most of the time.

If we are going to talk about brands I would still like a 180 treadwear rule. I know some of you are worried about showing up for a race and realizing the tires you have aren’t the latest greatest but with only a few tires in contention for the best 180 and above tire the best tire compound shouldn’t change that often.[/quote]

Autocross and DE’s don’t compare in tire wear to racing at all. Racing on street tires would be terrible. It’s been done and it WAS terrible.

#37

[quote=“philstireservice” post=64583]

Autocross and DE’s don’t compare in tire wear to racing at all. Racing on street tires would be terrible. It’s been done and it WAS terrible.[/quote]

So as long as I’m terrible my tires will last a lot longer than the fast guys. This is excellent news.

#38

[quote=“turbo329is” post=64584]

So as long as I’m terrible my tires will last a lot longer than the fast guys. This is excellent news.[/quote]

Universal truth no matter what tire is being used.

It seems tires are always being grumbled about. The grass isn’t always greener. I’m delighted to now be in a series with a relatively inexpensive and long-lasting tire. Relatively being the key word, they could always cost less and last longer. If there was a class move to Hoo-Hoos, the guys with deep pockets would be on stickers every weekend and those who weren’t would grumble about it because it would be a real and demonstrable advantage. Even if you couldn’t bring stickers, you’d have to replace them after about 12 heat cycles because they would be 1-2 seconds off the pace at that point. (Judging from experience with the R6)

So I for one am thrilled to be on the RA1. Even more so if they last as long as they used to.

$.02

#39

[quote=“Ranger” post=64557]
Carter told us 3-4yrs ago something along the lines of… if we as a community had a strong consensus re. switching to a specific tire that we could do it". I don’t recall what his exact words were but he definately gave us the impression that if SpecE30 wanted to leave Toyo, NASA wouldn’t stand in our way.[/quote]
SM in SCCA changed to Hoosiers this year. I lobbied hard (as SM Series Director in the Southeast) for NASA to allow us to run Hoosiers so we could maintain cross-over between SCCA and NASA.

The NASA powers-that-be made it crystal clear to Jim Pantas and in turn to me that Hoosiers would not happen. Ever. The best thing to do is keep learning the Toyos.

The collective knowledge base about setup and pressures for RA-1s would be lost with a move to Hoosiers. That’s fine for folks who own no tires and have no experience with them, but for most of the grid who have a couple sets of tires and a couple years of experience, a tire change is a big deal.

Moot point. But I’ll tell you that some front runners are shaving them. Yes. Shaving a molded tire. Purely to reduce rotating mass. Awesomeness.

PS - The DE instructor who got 200 autocrosses out of a set of tires? I’m pretty sure he doesn’t drive like a mid-pack SE30 driver. Apples and oranges, IMHO. I could get approximately 1500 autocrosses out of a set of basketweaves, but the grip would be sub-optimal unless I added tires to them. :laugh:

#40

If you want to make EVERYTHING last longer, the only solution is less weight in the cars.

And I don’t buy that argument that this will “force” people to shave to 2/32nds. People are running huge amounts of ballast to make weight as it is.