So now that the 13-13 rule will be in effect for our series, where are the "O"fficial rules. Need to know how much contact I can make before it takes effect before VIR…ie does a bump draft constitute contact?
Thanks.
Keith
13-13 Rule Regulations
Carter
#2
We are curretly working on the details, for an "Autobahn Group" 13/13 rule. But to answer your question, we ran under the 944 Cup 13/13 at Summit and will do the same at VIR. Go to their site for the details.
Regarding bump drafting…if you and the "bump draft-ee" are ok with what happens, the series directors are ok with it.
If you dent someone’s fender and he agrees that it was a "racing incident" and no one is upset about it, no major penalties will be issued. However, you might still receive some kind of penalty. The "victim" doesn’t determine the penalty, but his reaction can affect it somewhat.
Any metal-to-metal contact is to be reported to the appropriate series director(s). After the cars are examined and the drivers are interviewed, appropriate action will be taken by all three Autobahn Group Series Directors. That action may be nothing at all, probation, the loss of any points, disqualification from that race, and up, depending on the severity of the incident.
Carter
brain
#3
Carter and I have talked extensively on this subject, so he knows how I feel but I’ll share for the benefit of the group.
As many of you know I used to run in the 944 Cup series. I no longer do for many reasons, the least of which was some horrible on track conduct by other drivers in the series.
Lets try to keep things in perspective…this is club racing and there’s no prize money or "F-1" deals waiting at the finish line. The best thing the current drivers and the up and comers can do is respect one another and keep the racing clean and fun. Spending $$ on dent repair and paint work is no fun.
As for bump drafting…In my humble, opinion if cars touch, someone is out of control…period. Not to mention that the front bumber on an 87 doesn’t match up to the rear bumper of an 89. I won’t go into how I know that.
Fun, Fast and clean is the way the series will grow and attract more competitors.
brain
brain
#4
I see that the 944 guys have a 13/13 rule policy posted on thier website. Are we (Spec E30) also adopting the policy to cover our series?
stevekappy
#5
brain wrote:
[quote]I see that the 944 guys have a 13/13 rule policy posted on thier website. Are we (Spec E30) also adopting the policy to cover our series?
http://www.44cup.com/1313/1313rule.pdf[/quote]
Funny… 
Wish it was actually a deterrent for them… the right side of my car is filled with 944 collisions.
-Steve
brain
#6
Steve,
Careful, not to point fingers (rocks in a glass house, or something like that). The 944 guys have soaked up a few E30 fenders as well. So both groups share the blame for last seasons paint swapping.
The point here is that if we run together, we all operate under the same guidelines of sportsmanship. Based on the punishment that Vic got when he accidentally punted Dave Deracola (944 director) off the track, I have a feeling that folks are going to be much more cognizant of their driving. In my opinion, that’s a good thing.
brain
Post edited by: brain, at: 2005/12/30 13:24
Carter
#7
6.1 Competitive Format
6.1.1 Regionally, an alternative competitive format based upon vintage no contact rules may be adopted.
This means that NASA Regions can adopt their own competitive format. We want each local group to make this decision, based on what is important to them. At the National event at Mid Ohio, we will discuss it as a group and will make our own decision just as the Regions do.
In NASA Mid Atlantic, we have an agreement with 944 Cup and GTS that specifys a 13/13 Rule.
Carter
leggwork
#8
that section is worded oddly - there is no competitive format stated, then it effectively says "alternatively …"
Am I correct that the default format is 13/13 unless explicitly modified in the region?
thanks,
bruce
Carter wrote:
[quote]6.1 Competitive Format
6.1.1 Regionally, an alternative competitive format based upon vintage no contact rules may be adopted.
Carter[/quote]
stevekappy
#9
brain wrote:
[quote]Steve,
Careful, not to point fingers (rocks in a glass house, or something like that). The 944 guys have soaked up a few E30 fenders as well. So both groups share the blame for last seasons paint swapping.
The point here is that if we run together, we all operate under the same guidelines of sportsmanship. Based on the punishment that Vic got when he accidentally punted Dave Deracola (944 director) off the track, I have a feeling that folks are going to be much more cognizant of their driving. In my opinion, that’s a good thing.
brainPost edited by: brain, at: 2005/12/30 13:24[/quote]
Brain,
I understand… but both of my incidents were not of my doing. One apologized for their mistake, and I am ok with that. He offered to pay for the damage. After thinking about it, I let it go. The other blamed me for his mistake, even suggesting that the NASA officials agreed with his side of the story without me being present. For that, I think there needs to be some growing up and taking some responsibility for one’s actions. I understand this is racing and there will sometimes be contact. But, owe up to them. That was the reason for my comment.
-Steve
brain
#10
I hear you loud and clear and agree with everything you said…I just finished rebuilding my car after an unfortunate incident at summit pt, so I feel your pain. My only point is that the 944 guys look at our forums too. Sometimes for the sake of cohesion, I thought it might be better to air our dirty laundry through channels, and not on the forum.
To expand on your comments, I think Vic is a stand up guy for the way he handled his incident. If only more racers took responsibility for there actions then the 13/13 issue would be moot.
Short of a perfect solution, it’s what we’ve got. Sorry if I came across as motherly…I just want us all to have fun, get along and be safe…Oh yea, and to pass as many 944’s as possible. :evil:
brain
Post edited by: brain, at: 2006/01/06 22:52
Carter
#11
leggwork wrote:
[quote]that section is worded oddly - there is no competitive format stated, then it effectively says "alternatively …"
Am I correct that the default format is 13/13 unless explicitly modified in the region?
thanks,
bruce
Carter wrote:
[quote]6.1 Competitive Format
6.1.1 Regionally, an alternative competitive format based upon vintage no contact rules may be adopted.
Carter[/quote][/quote]
Bruce:
The default position in any club racing, unless otherwise spcified, is open racing with no 13/13. But regionally, an alternative format (13/13 or some form of it, based on what the local racers prefer) may be adopted.
Carter
leggwork
#12
so, seeing some relatively minor contact in the videos from Nationals, I am curious what the current contact rules are. I see that GTS Challenge has
http://www.gtschallenge.com/1313.htm
What is Spec E30 using?
thanks,
bruce
jonmca
#13
Bruce,
There was some contact at the last summit event as well but there has still been no word on that situation either. Not sure what the truly official stance is on all of this.
j
screwynewy
#14
Seems there is some leniency in the enforcement of the rule. Or the handling of each case is been kept between the people involved. Did I just say the same thing two different ways? 
edavidson
#16
Ken - you did, but it appears the GTS rules do as well. In one section it notes that if the 2 drivers agree no one was at fault, then there is no penalty. In another paragraph it notes that any contact will be cause for penalty. Hmm…
:silly:
Carter
#17
To clear it up…
Spec E30 runs a 13/13 in the Mid Atlantic Region. Each Region makes their own rules in this regard.
At the National Championship, NASA’s rules applied…it was their "party." If body contact occurred, the driver(s) was supposed to fill out the appropriate form and file it with NASA there at Mid Ohio and within 30 minutes of the conclusion of the race, to set their program in motion.
Yes, we had some minor contact (there were several incidents of major contact in other classes) but none of our drivers felt that the incidents were severe enough to file a protest. That was their decision.
My car got rubbed a couple of times but I had no body damage and I never lost a position due to the contact, thus my deciding not to file a protest. I spoke with the drivers and we’re ok.
I was asked, however, to sit on a panel that reviewed some fairly major hits in GTS. We found certain drivers to be at fault after reviewing videos, looking at the write-ups by the involved drivers, reviewing the corner worker call-in sheets, and talking with witnesses. I wasn’t involved in the penalties.
Regarding the two incidents at Summit Point, Chris Cobetto had contact with Carlton Goldthwaite and as a result, Chris put himself in the last finishing position. Chris does not have a habit of making contact with other cars so his chosen penalty was as severe (or more severe) than he would have received from an Autobahn Group Series Administrators 13/13 panel.
In the Steve K and Jens Scott case, there was no video evidence, neither driver was upset about the incident (I spoke to both at-length on the telephone), neither driver was angry about body damage, witness testimony was reviewed and considered, neither driver has a history of making contact with other drivers, nothing was called-in by the corner workers, and both drivers had a different perspective of the contact - who was ahead of whom. With all this disagreement, it is impossible to get a definitive perspective on the incident. Therefore, no penalties will be issued.
To avoid this kind of disagreement, we recommend that any driver who is involved in an incident, and feels that the other driver is at fault, immediately contact the Race Director to file a protest (per the CCR) within 30 minutes of the conclusion of the race. He should also contact the acting Spec E30 Administrator so he can assemble the Autobahn Group Series Administrators so they can review the incident and issue a 13/13 penalty, if appropriate.
With that being said, it is also true that 13/13 penalties may be issued by the Autobahn Group Series Administrators when the evidence is clear, by examining the cars, looking at the corner worker call-in sheets, talking with the drivers, video evidence, etc. We won’t however, issue 13/13 penalties unless this is very clear. In the Steve K/Jens Scott incident, we had witness testimony from one driver but none of the other necessary factors.
Plus, in my absence, the acting Mid Atlantic Region Spec E30 Administrator will be prepared better (my responsibility) for this kind of situation and the proper procedures will be spelled-out in written form.
I will contact the other Autobahn Group Series Administrators so we can formalize the procedures, so all drivers in the Autobahn group are aware of the procedures.
And again, this only applies to the Mid Atlantic Region.
Carter
leggwork
#19
thanks for that explanation Carter.
Is there a reason not to have a nation-wide 13/13 rule like GTS Challenge has? I like consistency.
thanks,
bruce
nasaregistrar
#20
Just an FYI to any driver in the Mid Atlantic region, you can always come see me to initiate the paperwork Carter referred to. We have obtained the forms from National while we were in Ohio so we will have consistent formats for reporting incidents.The other thing to remember is that video evidence is generally the best at telling just what happened, but it is not always clear even on the video. There was an incident in the Honda race at nationals that took 4 videos before we were able to determine what exactly happened.