Yet another "spec" exhaust problem

#61

Quit your bitching. Paul designed/sourced/manufactured a product as requested. He did all the work and all you have to do is bolt it on. I can tell who is working for themselves and who works for someone else. Paul deserves to make a profit for the work he has done…don’t dare think otherwise!! If you think his price is too much, source the parts and have the pipe bent and see.

#62

Easy does it guys. I knew better then to say anything on the topic.

I am not trying to knock anyone here. I think my only point was that if we can buy all other spec parts from any variety of vendors, why should we be beholden to one individual for the exhaust system?

What if I could produce the same system with true mandrel bends, with the spec muffler and a nice stainless tip, what if it was $349? If its the same spec’d system but just abit nicer and folks where willing to pay the premium, why not?

I just personally think the single individual monopoly is not fair practice to all involved.

But I am certainly not looking for argument or stepping on anyones toes, so I wish you a good weekend and well to do.

Thanks,

#63

I am sure part of the development was finding someone willing to actually do the work. If that be the case, the developer deserves whatever spoils he gets. What we don’t know is if NASA is getting a kick back on each system sold the way the spec tire contract works.

Robert, I certainly do not begrudge you wanting to be a supplier for Spec E30 items which you can currently be…shocks, springs, sways, camber plates, etc. All are made by a manufacturer and PP is basically in that group. As with the others, you can keep the exhaust on the shelf and sell as necessary.

Shocks are one vendor only. Springs, sways, camber plates several vendors make these. I would suggest researching the vendor agreement and submitting your proposal to furnish an identical exhaust system.

#64

Maybe others have been having problems but I think a lot of the issues have been resolved. Aside from that stupid collector I didn’t have much of a problem getting the exhaust and then installing it.

#65

[quote=“cwbaader” post=71971]

Shocks are one vendor only. Springs, sways, camber plates several vendors make these. I would suggest researching the vendor agreement and submitting your proposal to furnish an identical exhaust system.[/quote]

Shocks are one manufacturer. You can choose among several vendors from which to buy them.

#66

Well, because this has been an issue for hmmm 4-5 years now, people have gone and done it. Sorry to disagree, but it can be done cheaper locally. There is nothing special about the parts used. Simple tubing, a collector, a flange and a muffler with hangers welded on it. Not exactly rocket science and not really all that tough for any shop with a pipe bender and welder. Even if it was the same cost, if you could do it locally, one would not have to pay shipping for parts you could get locally. It seems like every exhaust the guys out west get need modification to fit or the quality of the build just doesn’t show.

Oddly, when someone like Robert speaks up, he is quickly told how wrong he is and that he doesn’t deserve to approach that topic. Even funnier is the suggestion to propose the idea to someone. A second vendor was suggested, identified and was willing to both produce and distribute the spec exhaust following Pauls exact specifications. Their information was submitted already and nothing was ever done about the request. The request was basically quashed.

Fundamentally, the bigger picture is this: Why not open the exhaust up to the racers? If that is not a viable option, why not just simplify the rules and state: The exhaust must be mfg’d from the exit of the stock H pipe. The exhaust tubing shall be cut and fed to a 2 to 1 collector pipe narrowing to a single pipe 2 1/2" in diamiter and made of 16-gauge aluminized or 304 stainless steel and shall feed into a manufacturer XYZ, model # 123 muffler with a single exit pipe mounted to stock hanger positions. The exhaust pipe shall terminate no shorter than 12 inches from the final stock hanger point and no longer than the leading edge of the rear bumper of the vehicle." Now this is just off he top of my head, but it would seem to be a simple thing to do and it would help keep the costs down. Isn’t that a basis of this series?

#67

You are correct in that they are sole manufacturers. I don’t think anyone is complaining about that. However, they are not their own sole distributor…and that is a BIG difference. By doing that, there is some competition and the vendors hear about it when the product is not to par. They lean on the MFG and vuala, quality control is introduced. With a single MFG/distributor, a monopoly is created and without competition, there is minimal motivation because by virtue of the rules, you are THE ONLY game in town.

#68

Guys, its a SPEC series…you use a spec tire/wheel/chassis/exhaust/ECU/trans/diff/motor/suspension, and most everything else…I don’t see a problem.

#69

Wheel is 15x7, no less than 13 lbs. You can buy it from a variety of manufacturers and dealers. There is not a spec wheel, but rather a set of criteria for the wheels.

For every other item listed, it is a specified part, but you can buy it from whomever you want.

No skin in this game (until I build a new car or need a new exhaust), but it’s simply not the same thing with the exhaust. There’s one exhaust, which you can buy from one guy. If he doesn’t answer the phone, tough. If he is out of inventory, tough.

#70

I think this is the only real fly in the ointment. Any scheme which routes a monopoly supply through multiple distributors inherently increases costs to the end customer. This is precisely the business model my business runs on. But the company that specifies my systems and makes me a monopoly supplier swings a large club in the quality, pricing, and timely delivery of my product. If there really are supply and delivery issues, I suspect the mother ship can bring a lot of pressure to bear.

#71

Unless you are doing it yourself, you would be hard pressed to find another shop to fabricate you an exhaust that is like the Poore version for cheaper.

I’m not in love with the fixturing and design though. This exhaust scrapes my load floor every time I load in or out of the trailer. I also would have preferred bolt type flanges. I’m not that great at making exhaust systems, and this one looks like I did it. The pipes should be tight to the body and fixtured properly, which they aren’t.

Then again, I am sure Paul has gotten enough feedback at this point and likely regrets agreeing to make these…

#72

[quote=“Foglght” post=72626]

Then again, I am sure Paul has gotten enough feedback at this point and likely regrets agreeing to make these…[/quote]

No doubt. And my own comments weren’t intended to disparage him personally. I never bought from him directly, the exhaust was already on the car. But in general, this single-manufacturer / single-vendor strategy with the exhaust is indeed quite different than with anything else on the car.

#73

Wheel is 15x7, no less than 13 lbs. You can buy it from a variety of manufacturers and dealers. There is not a spec wheel, but rather a set of criteria for the wheels.

For every other item listed, it is a specified part, but you can buy it from whomever you want.

No skin in this game (until I build a new car or need a new exhaust), but it’s simply not the same thing with the exhaust. There’s one exhaust, which you can buy from one guy. If he doesn’t answer the phone, tough. If he is out of inventory, tough.[/quote]

EXACTLY! That is the entire point that everyone seems to be in disagreement with. Some just seem to love defending this issue for reasons that really make no sense.

#74

[post=72625][quote] If there really are supply and delivery issues, I suspect the mother ship can bring a lot of pressure to bear.[/quote]

There have been these very issues and it has been said they are fixed…they are not. The build quality is still and issue when you resolve the supply & delivery issue. The last 3 had to be taken to a welder for repairs/corrections to make them fit and operate correctly.

The problem is “the mother ship” has not put enough pressure on the vendor to change this on any consistant basis and while the reasons tossed out by some are rumors I won’t spread, their actions would seem to support them.

As I have said, I have no skin in the game and don’t know Paul at all. What I do know is that the racers are the customer and the customers have been unhappy for some time. It seems their crys fall on deaf ears as the fundemental answer they are provided with is deal with it.

#75

I’d love to take my system to the shop and get it done properly, but that isn’t allowed. A la camber rules, I’ll just have to wreck the car to get the bends correct.

#76

You are correct about one thing…this is a Spec Series.

However, let’s just look at the rest of your statement:[ul]

[li]Tires: You can buy them from any Toyo Motorsports dealer…all over the country. Prices vary, availablility is fairly local and supply is not a problem.
[li]Wheels: They must weigh at least 13 pounds. No specific wheel spec’d and lots of choices. Prices vary.[/li]
[li]Chassis: Infinate suppliers and infinate prices variance.
[/li]
[li]ECU: Comes with the car and replacement is from anyone who has one. Prices vary, availablility is local and supply is not a problem.
[/li]
[li]Trans, Diff, Motor: All have infinate suppliers and infinate prices variance.
[/li]
[li]Availablility is local and supply is not a current problem.
[/li]
[li]Suspension: Multiple suppliers, prices vary, availablility is fairly local and supply is not a problem.
[/li]
[li]Exhaust: One manufacturer who is also the supplier with a history of substandard customer service and poor build quality. No competition. His parts price & shipping price/method is what you are stuck with and MUST pay.[/li]
[/ul]
You see, nobody is complaining about the fact that we are in a spec series. In fact, I would venture to say that this is what most love about it. The issue is the fact that we are mandated to used this specific part, from this specific mfg, who is the sole supplier, too.

If anyone can’t see the problem now, than (and I say this with all due respect) perhaps they are part of the problem.

#77

I love your passion Chuck and opposing opinions always raise spirited, yet healthy, debate. It sparks forward thinking and new ideas so things can evolve.

However, even the US Government expires a drug MFG’s patent on a drug formula to allow free market sales after a certain amount of time. Look at all the Spec E30 cars across the US since the series started. Has he not made his money back yet? Also, the nature of the series is to grow and progress with the times and it’s participants. That being said, perhaps the exhuast is something that should evolve and we should open up to the racers to let them play with it a bit.

We don’t get a very large bump in HP no matter what exhaust we use, so maybe (just thinking out loud here) we should make this one fo the things the racers can experiment with. Perhaps a rule that says: racers are free to use any exhaust system they wish from the stock exhuast manifold back, however the total length of the exhaust from the stock positioned exhaust manifold must be a minimum of “XX” inches.

Just my .02

#78

I’ve installed several of these systems and all fit…but you have to fiddle with them and get the tubes turned correctly to make them fit. I always weld the complete system together except for the flange.

Now, for monopoly…I don’t race Spec e30, but I have worked on more than my share of cars. Paul developed the system (does anyone want to address the question of whether or not NASA is getting a kickback on each system?)Was he promised a monopoly for the development cost? Did anyone else pay development cost? So now you want to copy his system and market it for less money…good for you!!~!! That is an excellent business model and should make you at least as rich as his development and production have made him.

Geez…get a life…accept what you can’t change or query national for a rule change. This discussion serves no purpose other than to argue.

#79

[quote=“cwbaader” post=72634]I’ve installed several of these systems and all fit…but you have to fiddle with them and get the tubes turned correctly to make them fit. I always weld the complete system together except for the flange.

Now, for monopoly…I don’t race Spec e30, but I have worked on more than my share of cars. Paul developed the system (does anyone want to address the question of whether or not NASA is getting a kickback on each system?)Was he promised a monopoly for the development cost? Did anyone else pay development cost? So now you want to copy his system and market it for less money…good for you!!~!! That is an excellent business model and should make you at least as rich as his development and production have made him.

Geez…get a life…accept what you can’t change or query national for a rule change. This discussion serves no purpose other than to argue.[/quote]

Please re-read the postings and kindly show me where I said I was going to copy his design and market it for less. Until such time you find it, which you won’t, I think this proves you are missing the point.

Allow me to also address this comment: “…accept what you can’t change or query national for a rule change.” Again Chuck, if you took the time to actually read the posts, you would see that it has been submitted. It wasn’t declined, nor was it accepted…it was simply not even addressed. Suffice to say that attempts have been made and that is about as far as I will comment on that portion of what has happened.

As for this line “This discussion serves no purpose other than to argue.” I actually feel that it is healthy to hear opinions and digest the feelings of others on topics. When you open you mind up to possibilities, it is only then that you can understand, consider and respect the alternatives available.

Again, I love your passion, but I just can’t wrap my head around how you feel all of the people who have been complaining about the build quality, customer service and lack of support are wrong and should just accept what you say they can’t change. I fail to comprehend why they should be thrilled with mediocrity.

Now for this little gem, “Geez…get a life…” Perhaps we should just let this one stand on it’s own merits.

#80

I do not participate as a driver…I have, however, built several motors, two cars, and numerous other things connected with SPEC E30.

So you are not going to duplicate what someone else has done but you want someone else to do exactly that?

I actually hope the rule change goes through, but I kinda doubt it will. It will just add one more thing that must be teched at the nationals.

Toyo pays to have their tires as the spec tire. Do all other vendors do the same? That basic question still has not been answered. Until we can answer that, the cost of various things, like the exhaust system, is a moot point.

I was a small business owner for 28 years before I retired 5 years ago. I tend to identify with the small businesses man because of all the crap they have to put up with and the competition from big business. So if you feel I am “passionate” about small business, you’re quite right.