Yet another "spec" exhaust problem

#74

[post=72625][quote] If there really are supply and delivery issues, I suspect the mother ship can bring a lot of pressure to bear.[/quote]

There have been these very issues and it has been said they are fixed…they are not. The build quality is still and issue when you resolve the supply & delivery issue. The last 3 had to be taken to a welder for repairs/corrections to make them fit and operate correctly.

The problem is “the mother ship” has not put enough pressure on the vendor to change this on any consistant basis and while the reasons tossed out by some are rumors I won’t spread, their actions would seem to support them.

As I have said, I have no skin in the game and don’t know Paul at all. What I do know is that the racers are the customer and the customers have been unhappy for some time. It seems their crys fall on deaf ears as the fundemental answer they are provided with is deal with it.

#75

I’d love to take my system to the shop and get it done properly, but that isn’t allowed. A la camber rules, I’ll just have to wreck the car to get the bends correct.

#76

You are correct about one thing…this is a Spec Series.

However, let’s just look at the rest of your statement:[ul]

[li]Tires: You can buy them from any Toyo Motorsports dealer…all over the country. Prices vary, availablility is fairly local and supply is not a problem.
[li]Wheels: They must weigh at least 13 pounds. No specific wheel spec’d and lots of choices. Prices vary.[/li]
[li]Chassis: Infinate suppliers and infinate prices variance.
[/li]
[li]ECU: Comes with the car and replacement is from anyone who has one. Prices vary, availablility is local and supply is not a problem.
[/li]
[li]Trans, Diff, Motor: All have infinate suppliers and infinate prices variance.
[/li]
[li]Availablility is local and supply is not a current problem.
[/li]
[li]Suspension: Multiple suppliers, prices vary, availablility is fairly local and supply is not a problem.
[/li]
[li]Exhaust: One manufacturer who is also the supplier with a history of substandard customer service and poor build quality. No competition. His parts price & shipping price/method is what you are stuck with and MUST pay.[/li]
[/ul]
You see, nobody is complaining about the fact that we are in a spec series. In fact, I would venture to say that this is what most love about it. The issue is the fact that we are mandated to used this specific part, from this specific mfg, who is the sole supplier, too.

If anyone can’t see the problem now, than (and I say this with all due respect) perhaps they are part of the problem.

#77

I love your passion Chuck and opposing opinions always raise spirited, yet healthy, debate. It sparks forward thinking and new ideas so things can evolve.

However, even the US Government expires a drug MFG’s patent on a drug formula to allow free market sales after a certain amount of time. Look at all the Spec E30 cars across the US since the series started. Has he not made his money back yet? Also, the nature of the series is to grow and progress with the times and it’s participants. That being said, perhaps the exhuast is something that should evolve and we should open up to the racers to let them play with it a bit.

We don’t get a very large bump in HP no matter what exhaust we use, so maybe (just thinking out loud here) we should make this one fo the things the racers can experiment with. Perhaps a rule that says: racers are free to use any exhaust system they wish from the stock exhuast manifold back, however the total length of the exhaust from the stock positioned exhaust manifold must be a minimum of “XX” inches.

Just my .02

#78

I’ve installed several of these systems and all fit…but you have to fiddle with them and get the tubes turned correctly to make them fit. I always weld the complete system together except for the flange.

Now, for monopoly…I don’t race Spec e30, but I have worked on more than my share of cars. Paul developed the system (does anyone want to address the question of whether or not NASA is getting a kickback on each system?)Was he promised a monopoly for the development cost? Did anyone else pay development cost? So now you want to copy his system and market it for less money…good for you!!~!! That is an excellent business model and should make you at least as rich as his development and production have made him.

Geez…get a life…accept what you can’t change or query national for a rule change. This discussion serves no purpose other than to argue.

#79

[quote=“cwbaader” post=72634]I’ve installed several of these systems and all fit…but you have to fiddle with them and get the tubes turned correctly to make them fit. I always weld the complete system together except for the flange.

Now, for monopoly…I don’t race Spec e30, but I have worked on more than my share of cars. Paul developed the system (does anyone want to address the question of whether or not NASA is getting a kickback on each system?)Was he promised a monopoly for the development cost? Did anyone else pay development cost? So now you want to copy his system and market it for less money…good for you!!~!! That is an excellent business model and should make you at least as rich as his development and production have made him.

Geez…get a life…accept what you can’t change or query national for a rule change. This discussion serves no purpose other than to argue.[/quote]

Please re-read the postings and kindly show me where I said I was going to copy his design and market it for less. Until such time you find it, which you won’t, I think this proves you are missing the point.

Allow me to also address this comment: “…accept what you can’t change or query national for a rule change.” Again Chuck, if you took the time to actually read the posts, you would see that it has been submitted. It wasn’t declined, nor was it accepted…it was simply not even addressed. Suffice to say that attempts have been made and that is about as far as I will comment on that portion of what has happened.

As for this line “This discussion serves no purpose other than to argue.” I actually feel that it is healthy to hear opinions and digest the feelings of others on topics. When you open you mind up to possibilities, it is only then that you can understand, consider and respect the alternatives available.

Again, I love your passion, but I just can’t wrap my head around how you feel all of the people who have been complaining about the build quality, customer service and lack of support are wrong and should just accept what you say they can’t change. I fail to comprehend why they should be thrilled with mediocrity.

Now for this little gem, “Geez…get a life…” Perhaps we should just let this one stand on it’s own merits.

#80

I do not participate as a driver…I have, however, built several motors, two cars, and numerous other things connected with SPEC E30.

So you are not going to duplicate what someone else has done but you want someone else to do exactly that?

I actually hope the rule change goes through, but I kinda doubt it will. It will just add one more thing that must be teched at the nationals.

Toyo pays to have their tires as the spec tire. Do all other vendors do the same? That basic question still has not been answered. Until we can answer that, the cost of various things, like the exhaust system, is a moot point.

I was a small business owner for 28 years before I retired 5 years ago. I tend to identify with the small businesses man because of all the crap they have to put up with and the competition from big business. So if you feel I am “passionate” about small business, you’re quite right.

#81

I truly appreciate your passion and conviction Chuck, I really do. But you are missing what everyone is saying when you wrote “So you are not going to duplicate what someone else has done but you want someone else to do exactly that?” No, I am not going to and no, I am not saying that someone should.

Here is the clear message that needs to be heard:A good bunch of the racers have experienced a lower level of service and a sub-standard product both in the past and recently. By using a single vendor, the group is at the mercy of the vendor by way of price, lead time, mood, whatever. He is the only source and that is all there is to it, period. It should have never been set up that way and since the series has aged some, it should evolve with it’s racers.

I feel that one of 3 things should happen:

  1. The parts should be spec’d out and allow a multitude of vendors be able to sell to the racers.
  2. If #1 is not an option, I would at least suggest that there be authorized vendors for Paul and can stock the parts and sell them as necessary. I personally proposed that last year and it STILL has gone unaddressed.
  3. If #2 is not an option, then we should consider opening up the rule to allow people to choose their own exhaust, just like we can do with our wheels. Again, we don’t get that much help from what we are given and the choices don’t offer a whole lot of improvement, but their availablity and fit are much more livable.

You wrote [color=#4400ff]“Toyo pays to have their tires as the spec tire. Do all other vendors do the same? That basic question still has not been answered. Until we can answer that, the cost of various things, like the exhaust system, is a moot point.”[/color] I feel confident that every vendor that is a sponsor of the series pays something to NASA as I know a few that do. However, since you brought up Toyo, let’s use them as an example. Please realize that on any given weekend, Toyo pays out between $800 to $1,850 in tire contingency money per region! Hawk pays out $150 per region, per weekend, and so on.

We all know that the spec series is suppose to level the playing field and make it a driver’s race. Using spec parts that are critical to the car’s performance is suppose to do that. Tires, suspension, etc. all contribute to that. I don’t think the exhaust is that big of a deal and if you read the verbiage I suggested, you can regulate the major issues with simple and clear language. Tech would only need to do 3 things. Locate the afixation point of the pipe, measure the pipe diameter and measure the pipe length. A visual and 2 templates…done. Leave the muffler open or perhaps regulate it to a sound cap. The details can easily be worked out, but you see where I am going with it.

As far as one more thing to be tech’d at nationals…so what. They have to tech it anyway for authentication and being tampered with already. My suggestion gives them nothing to authenticate, only 2 things to measure via templates and a visual mount point.

Ironically, we share common ground on the small business front and I actually agree with you in supporting small businesses. However, rule one of any business is that you need to do it better than the other guy to survive and treat your customers like you do your friends and family. Look, I would support using Paul if the service was better and the quality was improved, but it hasn’t. Bottom line…that is not acceptable.

Above all else Chuck, thank you for your opinions, your insight and your passion.

#82

This thread has become a little embarassing.

I’ve talked to Paul and Carter about the exhaust situation several times over the years.

Years ago Carter looked for a way to standardize our exhaust for a reasonable price. Paul was willing to step up and make it happen. Not simply “talk” like most people do, but make it happen.

It’s been no bed of roses for Paul and I think he has regrets over this. He manages a tiny profit from the systems, but gets more complaints then appreciation.

He and I talked about ways to fix the supply problem. One possible solution was to raise the price of the exhaust by $25 which would be enough to cover his cost to carry significantly more stockage of the systems.

We talked to Carter about this too. Carter wanted to shield us from having to pay more for the systems so was hesitant to green light the $25 idea. Instead he committed, if I recall correctly, to keep a spare system at his place, and also Walter@VMWerks planned to keep several systems. So Carter and Walter stood up and took on additional hassle so that we wouldn’t see a price increase.

What is driving the standardized exhaust scheme is that it keeps closed the whole exhaust can of worms as a compliance inspection issue. Keeping that can of worms closed spares us all a lot of hassle. The cost, of course, is the absence of multiple suppliers for the same system. That “could” mean better quality, cheaper, and easier to get.

If you feel strongly that there should be multiple available sources for our spec exhaust that you need to work out a scheme with Carter that he finds acceptable. Like maybe, for example, you write up specific rules for the design of our exhaust. Or maybe you enlist another mfr or two to make the systems.

It’s not reasonable to just bitch about a problem. If you’re unhappy with something, dream up a compelling rule change that Carter might buy into.

The idea that the exhaust rule is not “fair” is confusing. Fair to whom…other venders? Good luck trying to get a rule change passed on the basis of it being more fair to venders.

Both Carter and Paul have taken on a lot to make this series a success. If you don’t like what they are doing, come up with a compelling alternative. See if you can get Walter, for example to agree with Peerless being a W. Coast source for the exhaust. Peerless can make them and both of them can stock them. That would give us 2 W. Coast sources for the exhaust.

#83

Ranger,

Glad to hear from you and thanks for sharing your insight. I agree, it is embarassing.

If you read the prior posts, you will see that I have addressed what you have said. Solutions have been offered, but they have not been accepted, plain and simple.

I don’t make the call or decision, I merely report back what the pulse of the racers is and why they feel that way to our national director. I do so with the hope and trust that he is both capable & wise enough to make the right decision. If the decision is to not change a thing, that is what we will do and those rules are what we will race under. Let the chips fall where they may and we’ll just deal with whatever comes our way.

#84

What is chapping my ass about this thread is that there’s a lot of criticism of guys that have really done a lot for the series. We will never achieve perfection, but we could be a little more appreciative of what Carter, Walter and Paul have done to make this series a success.

There is no “right” decision. If a person wants a rule change, they can make a case for it to Carter. If they don’t succeed, they should suck it up and drive on. Someone feel strongly about a problem? They can reach into their wallet like Walter did (in stocking spare systems).

#85

Scott, thank you for succinctly expressing my sentiments.

#86

[quote=“Ranger” post=72644]What is chapping my ass about this thread is that there’s a lot of criticism of guys that have really done a lot for the series. We will never achieve perfection, but we could be a little more appreciative of what Carter, Walter and Paul have done to make this series a success.

There is no “right” decision. If a person wants a rule change, they can make a case for it to Carter. If they don’t succeed, they should suck it up and drive on. Someone feel strongly about a problem? They can reach into their wallet like Walter did (in stocking spare systems).[/quote]

Interesting perspective Scott, but let me ask you something about what you said…Why is it wrong for the paying customer to voice their opinion when there is a problem they would like corrected? And where is it that there is not enough appreciation for those who worked on the genesis of the series?

The problem I see with that statement is that you are missing a key component of the topic. NASA is a business and this series adds to and supports that business. In the end, the paying client is the key to all of this. Without them, the series dies and goes away. There comes a point where things in the series will evolve, you can’t avoid it. To be frank with you, I think those who do suffer what most businesses that fear change do, they kill themselves instead of making themselves stronger by meeting the needs of thier clients. I have seen this time and time again and each time it ends the same. Speaking up when there is a problem that is not being addressed is the most effective way to get the message heard from the client’s perspective. And the fastest way to loose the client is to tell them to “suck it up.” Again, nobody is saying “screw the guys who got things started.” They are saying give us a quality product at a reasonalbe price and with reasonable access. That message seems to be getting glazed over and that focus is on something that is not even being said. It shows a basic and defensive prespective instead of a “let’s make this better” mindset.

I also disagree with there is no “right” decision. The right decision is to do what is in the best interest of, and maintains or grows, the series while meeting the wants/needs of the client. There is also a wrong decision, which is do tune out your paying customers and respond with “suck it up.” Again Scott, People have voiced their opinion and have been willing to open their wallets…something you may not be aware of. You see, people don’t usually start complaining until illogical things happen and they are ignored. What happens next is they either leave the series blaming lack of capable leadership or they go rouge. Like in this case, people will make their own exhaust that looks just like Paul’s and will run it. IF they go to nationals, they will just borrow someone eleses. Or, they may just choose to blow off nationals and not race there. Either way, it hurts the series in the long run.

#87

I have sat back and thought about this entire thing for a good long time. I have re-read the thread and come to a few conclusions.

  1. Ranger has a few good points. Regardless if I agree with them, they are still valid.

  2. A change was submitted and it didn’t go through. I am sure Carter has his reason and those should be directed to him, not aired in a forum of he with the keyboard last usually wins.

  3. If the solutions that have been submitted don’t work, then they don’t work and we need to trust in our National Director to lead the group in a direction that is for the good of most…because “all” just ain’t gonna happen. I’d like it to, but it won’t.

  4. The focus of the issue and circumstances that exit may run deeper than some, including me, realize.

  5. This is not the means to a positive end and a more consorted effort needs to be made to address the appropriate solution.

  6. Chuck is still a poo-poo stinky head…but a passionate one. :lol: I’m just kidding…Now come on in for the real thing and let’s hug it out. (Come on Chuck, you know you chuckled a little bit)

#88

Would love to sit down and have a beer with you, but you’re on the wrong coast!!

#89

I knew you had a soft spot Chuckie!

Ok, now let’s have a right coast / wrong coast battle now! :evil:

#90

[quote=“Fooshe” post=72653]I have sat back and thought about this entire thing for a good long time. I have re-read the thread and come to a few conclusions.

  1. Ranger has a few good points. Regardless if I agree with them, they are still valid.

  2. A change was submitted and it didn’t go through. I am sure Carter has his reason and those should be directed to him, not aired in a forum of he with the keyboard last usually wins.

  3. If the solutions that have been submitted don’t work, then they don’t work and we need to trust in our National Director to lead the group in a direction that is for the good of most…because “all” just ain’t gonna happen. I’d like it to, but it won’t.

  4. The focus of the issue and circumstances that exit may run deeper than some, including me, realize.

  5. This is not the means to a positive end and a more consorted effort needs to be made to address the appropriate solution.
    [/quote]

#91

Interesting thread. As a point of comparison, let’s look at Spec Miata. There is no spec exhaust but there are exhaust specs. The tinkerers tinkered, dyno guys dyno’d, marketers marketed, naysayers naysaid (?) and at the end of the day, there is one de facto spec system - Springfield Dyno. $299 at saferacer dot com.

How did dreaded, evil SM end up with one standard? I guess it wasn’t that damn complicated after all.

The guy who did the design and R&D runs a dyno shop so he farmed out manufacturing and fulfillment to other groups. I assume he still gets a little cheddar from each one but he doesn’t have to perform the tasks he’s not good at.

If only we could replicate that model for SE30. If only the situations were similar… :wink:

#92

I would just like to throw out something as a consideration. I just recently started moving my own car over from the local PRO3 series to Spec E30. Part of my reasoning is related to cost…

PRO3 is open exhaust - so there is no restrictions other then sound level. The trend this year has been for everyone to move to two specific exhausts manufactured by two separate shops (there’s a long story about where the two designs were based.) Both of these are complete end to end systems from the header to the tailpipe, cost: $3000. Yes, 3K for the exhaust alone. Both systems are now must haves to run in the front.

I was happy to give Paul under $400 for his system. He was very pleasant on the phone, and returned any call I made. He had my exhaust shipped to me a day before he had promised on the phone (and this shipped all the way to Portland, Oregon!) The quality of the system is what I would expect in that price, and mine did come with the bolt on collector.

Sure, we could probably have someone on the West Coast as a supplier, but how often are people buying exhaust systems? For most, I could imagine it being maybe one or two for a car, unless you have some really bad clearance issues (which I do in my driveway…) Even still, with the prospect of shelling out 3K vs 400, I am just fine with the existing Spec exhaust…

#93

Wow!