Whats the Hang up on ABS?

#1

When Im reviewing what it would take to convert my SCCA ITS car into a legal SE30 car, the biggest hang up is the ABS system.

My system for instance, was removed in part, I believe the module is still in the dash but the pump is gone, portions of the harness missing, Sensors long gone. The other items I could swap over in a weekend.

It seems the overall opinion is the ABS system is advantageous. But currently for me it’s the one thing keeping me from going SE30 racing with NASA, and it sounds like many systems are in a state of disrepair. Has anyone every challenged the rule and proposed that the rule be changed to SCCA’s take on the ABS system? “Components that perform no other
function than to assist in the activation of the ABS portion of
the brake system may be removed”

I think a majority of the IT cars, at least what I’ve seen in the midwest have the ABS removed. If that rule was changed this could potentially open up another avenue for perspective SE30 racers.

SM has taken the opposite approach making competitors render the system inoperable.

What are your thoughts? I am curious more so if we feel there is a performance advantage to non-abs vs. abs etc. (outside of flat-spotting tires) Could the rule written in an open language support competitive racing between a non-abs car and an abs car?, or would the rule need to be one way or the other?

#2

My ABS was removed years ago for SCCA before i got the car. Zip tied an old pump behind the left front headlight, went racing. Doubt I will ever see anyone protest that as the weight is where it should be. Have heard from others that that setup has been approved in the past. My argument would be that i am at a chosen disadvantage not having ABS should it ever come up.

#3

Thats not a valid argument as defined by the ruleset though?

While the realistic nature that I would be in a tech shed at the end of the National Championships is probably slim to none, I would like to have my hardware in-line to what is set forth by the rules.

And your comment is kind of where Im coming from, I hear lots of this going on. “its there but it doesnt work” “oh I unplugged this to get rid of the light” etc…

How many repair threads are there on this forum?

Why not align the ruleset to apparently what a majority is doing anyway?

#4

There is nothing in the rulebook that says it must be functioning and pre 1987-ish non ABS cars are perfectly legal. A strict reading would require all of the tubing, sensors, etc and the argument would be valid, but i am too lazy to put in all that crap, especially since I don’t race in the rain. If i get DQ’d for it someday, I will do what i always do: open beer, load car, go home. So if you are really worried about it, put it all in and keep a blown fuse handy. ABS should not be what keeps you from NASA. Knowing you will never beat Sandro, Ryan or Group 3 should be what keeps you away. :stuck_out_tongue:

#5

From one that has been around a loooog time, the rules are good, Realignment of rules is an arduous process.

Regional directors are pretty flexible. By your own admission, you’re not on the podium. I agree with Brian, bolt the pump in for appearance and go racing.

You are welcome to take up the arduous process of rules changes/additions later. This forum is not the place to get rules related changes to happen. Very rarely does the rules czar read this info. Good luck.

RP

#6

I’m currently on the podium and a lap record holder in ITS. A national level championship race has quite a few more variables and about 8 times the competitors than my local regional romp. I’m trying to be realistic but at the same time my sights are set on a more competitive campaign moving forward with something different.

I’m not seeking the change on the forum I’ve been around club racing long enough to understand how that works. I’m seeking community feedback, discussion, and support to pursue the change. As an outsider I feel it makes more sense to see if I’m of the minority in this idea or if there was an overwhelming response within the community to make this change.

I’m not comfortable investing in retrofitting my car half way, knowing it’s illegal, and competing on that level.

#7

My car was originally built for SCCA/BMW CCA KP and had everything ABS was removed during the build. After flat spotting several tires at CMP, I was fed up and decided to retrofit ABS to into my car. It was very time consuming, but really not that difficult.

See this thread. http://spece30.com/forum/39-brakes-and-abs/52411-abs-retrofit?limit=10&start=40

If this is something you plan to tackle, I recommend sourcing a complete body harness along with all of the ABS goodies and simply swap in the body harness.

#8

This is an interesting point.

How is authenticity of the chassis performed within NASA?

The brakes are not part of the drivetrain by definition?

7.3.2. Vehicles with automatic transmissions or four wheel drive are not eligible. Eligible vehicles
include E30 cars originally built as a 318i, 318is, 325, 325E, or 325i provided they contain
the Spec E30 eligible drivetrain from a car originally built as a 325i or 325is.

So SpecE30 already has this “disparity” between non-abs and abs chassis’s?

#9

Chassis authenticity is performed by a visual inspection of the boxiness of the car. Square=e30, round=e36, sloped=e46, ugly=mazda :slight_smile:

#10

[quote=“FishMan” post=78508]My car was originally built for SCCA/BMW CCA KP and had everything ABS was removed during the build. After flat spotting several tires at CMP, I was fed up and decided to retrofit ABS to into my car. It was very time consuming, but really not that difficult.

See this thread. http://spece30.com/forum/39-brakes-and-abs/52411-abs-retrofit?limit=10&start=40

If this is something you plan to tackle, I recommend sourcing a complete body harness along with all of the ABS goodies and simply swap in the body harness.[/quote]

I read your thread last year when I was investigating what I wanted to do in the off-season.

What was your appx. total cost in finding all these components and time invested?

#11

Come on! More rectangular really!

#12

[quote=“tschreyer” post=78502]Thats not a valid argument as defined by the ruleset though?

While the realistic nature that I would be in a tech shed at the end of the National Championships is probably slim to none, I would like to have my hardware in-line to what is set forth by the rules.

And your comment is kind of where Im coming from, I hear lots of this going on. “its there but it doesnt work” “oh I unplugged this to get rid of the light” etc…

How many repair threads are there on this forum?

Why not align the ruleset to apparently what a majority is doing anyway?[/quote]
The vast majority has working ABS.

For the regional races, have the ABS pump in place. Talk to your regional director to confirm.

For Nationals, if you think you might be near the front, put the sensors in place on your wheels. With both the ABS pump and the sensors in place, it’d be pretty hard to take heat in Impound.

My ABS failed my 2nd year of racing. I thought “no big deal, SCCA doesn’t like it, I’ll learn to race w/o it. I’m sure I’ll be able to feel when a wheel is locking up.”

What I found tho is that, maybe because of our soft springs, I could not always sense the onset of lockup. Sometimes I could, but other times I didn’t detect it until the wheel skidded a foot or so. Calling the result a “flat spot” is maybe an exaggeration, but it did accelerate wear on the tires. So I figured out what was wrong with the ABS and fixed it.

Those that can brake as well or better w/o ABS, more power too them. I’m really not that great at this, so maybe that’s why I was unreliable about detecting the onset of lockup.

#13

very true. Bricks are rectangles.
Typically, the minute enforcement of the rules involves weight, power and torque. The reason the ruleset is not really long and complicated is that the rules guys, like most E30 drivers, are lazy and don’t like to write. So they say “don’t do anything” but if you do, they have latitude to allow or disallow and you will find very few regional people who would care about abs, esp if the heavy pump is in the right place. I think it would be “do u have brakes? ok good.” At nationals, who knows but again we are obsessed with weight and power (and apparently socks) and those are the typical infractions. Don’t sweat it. come race with us!

#14

Tim,

If you decide to install ABS, helpful tips are below.

Electrical is the hardest part; the rest is just swapping in the correct parts. The ABS system does not have a separate wiring harness and it sounds like the car builder cut out the ABS components from the body harness.

You have two options; 1) you can swap in a complete body harness or 2) remove the ABS components from a complete harness and splice in the appropriate electrical connections. I chose option 2 and recommend you do as well if you are electrically savvy. Again, both options will require a complete body harness with fuse box and none of the ABS sensor wiring cut prior to the wheel sensor connectors.

Option 1 is self-explanatory. Option 2 is a bit more involved and time consuming.

-Start with complete body harness and remove everything that is not ABS related; this is the hardest part of the job. Essentially, start at the main ABS connector and trace every wire through the fuse box and to termination. Do the same for the ABS relay which is separate but close to the ABS connector. You’ll need to cut off the fuse box to remove the wiring. Take your time and make sure and trace every wire. Some wires travel through the fuse box and to the ABS pump connector and should not be cut. When you get all the non-ABS wiring cut away, tape up the harness to protect the wiring and install in the car.

-Electrical connections are next. Start at the main ABS connector, identify the appropriate pin and find the corresponding wires by ringing out with multimeter before making the connections. Notes below are from a 1988 but I believe other years are very similar. Required connections below:
*Pin 1 (red/yellow wire): connect to switched power.
*Pin 10 (brown/yellow), pin 20 (brown), and pin 34 (brown): connect to ground.
*Pin 15 (blue): charge indicator; connect to blue wire from alternator. This is pin 1 at the C101.
*Pin 25 (green/red): 14v when you activate brake switch; no voltage with brake switch open. Connect to green/red on brake pedal switch.
*There is a group of brown wires near the ABS pumper connector that you should terminate to ground.

-Connect the connector on the ABS pump (along with ground connections). Connect the ABS computer below the dash.

-Check the wheel sensors; they should measure 1000 ohms (rears 1100ish); FL-Pin 4 and 6, FR-Pin 11 and 21, RR-Pin 24 and 26, LR-Pin 8 and 9. Check pins across ground with a multimeter.

-Make sure the ABS light is good. You’ll need to install the ABS light in your instrument cluster from the newly added harness.

-Install the hydraulic lines and bleed the system if not already complete.

-Start the car. It’s a very good sign if the light comes on then goes out after a few seconds. You may need to rev the engine to increase the alternator voltage output beyond the ABS minimum threshold to initially turn off the warning light. If the light doesn’t go out, break out the electrical manual and start troubleshooting.

-After the light turns out, drive the car. If the light comes back on, you likely have a malfunctioning wheel sensor. If not, your system should be working.