What next springs, wheels R888, bushing, seat,

#1

Hello All, (Ranger nice web site)

Working on my E30 still Daily Driver and AutoXer soon to be DD AutoX and HPDE and then hopefully dedicated track SpecE30.
I have a budget to likely do 2 more things this month before next autox and HPDE.
Which would you do first to improve times at autox and prep for HPDE’s. BMWCCA, NASA
1 Rerplace sof,t tall, ST springs with H&R Race (plan on doing it this week) $345 + $200 install (Big Fish Motorsports)
2. Order 4 DForce LTW5 15x7 and get some R888’s a bit later $460 + $600 (cheaper tires?) I’m planning this one also next payday.
3. Relace 46lbs 325is drivers seat with Corbeau FX1 Pro. (can I run this with stock belt for now at NASA HPDE’s not race?)
4. New polyurethane busshing set, correct camber in rear etc. $$$
5. get used IE exhaust for $200 (can I run SpecE30 exhaust on the street in California??? if so I will)

ALready have: ST bars, billy sports, OEM camber correcting front shock mounts, Hawk HPS, Brembo blanks, CAI,Dinan chip, new shift linkage E36 stick, new M20B25 :slight_smile: running 14x6.5 baskets weaves and Yokohama AVS ES100’s 205 60 14, AC delete

Just trying to minimize my mistakes and take the shortest route to fun and the track. You guys rule.

Thankjs in advance,
Richard F.
San Diego (So cal region)

#2

The first thing I’d buy is tires. It is the cheapest way to make your car stick better.

#3

Delphin25 wrote:

[quote]Hello All, (Ranger nice web site)

Working on my E30 still DD/AutoX soon to be HPDE and then hopefully SpecE30.
I have a budget to likely do 2 more things this month before next autox and HPDE.
Which would you do first to improve times at autox and prep for HPDE’s. BMWCCA, NASA
1 Rerplace sof,t tall, ST springs with H&R Race (plan on doing it this week) $345 + $200 install (Big Fish Motorsports)
2. Order 4 DForce LTW5 15x7 and get some R888’s a bit later $460 + $600 (cheaper tires?) I’m planning this one also next payday.
3. Relace 46lbs 325is drivers seat with Corbeau FX1 Pro. (can I run this with stock belt for now at NASA HPDE’s not race?)
4. New polyurethane busshing set, correct camber in rear etc. $$$
4. get used IE exhaust for $200 (can I run SpecE30 exhaust on the street in California??? if so I will)

ALready have: ST bars, billy sports, OEM offset front shock mounts, camber, Hawk HPS, Brembo blanks, CAI,Dinan chip, new linkage E36 stick, new M20B25 :slight_smile: running 14x6.5 baskets weaves and Yokohama AVS ES100’s 205 60 14, AC delete

Richard F.
San Diego (So cal region)[/quote]

Seat. A race seat with OEM belts is kinda unusual. I’d talk to Tech in your region. I know of no reason why that combo would fail, but each region’s senior tech kinda does things his own way.

What I’d do is get a “harness guide bar”. This is a bar that mounts between your B pillars at your belt mounting points behind your shoulder. Then you can put in a real harness. The shoulder belts don’t anchor to the harness guide bar, instead the go over the harness guide bar and then anchor to the floor.

Then you buy someone’s expired harness which if you look around can probably had for almost free. You don’t have to worry about harness expiration until you are racing.

The downside of this is that the race harness and seat keep you upright and you have no rollover protection. That creates an intrusion risk where your roof caves in and you can’t slump down like you could with an OEM belt system.

Personally, I think that a real harness and race seat is so much better then OEM restraints that it’s an easy win.

One better would be to get a 1/2 cage put in, but that would be expensive and you’d likely be sacrificing your rear seats.

It will take some research to find a harness guide bar like that. I had one for a Porsche 911 that had a long enough range of adjustability that it would probably fit our cars too.

OEM Offset shock mounts?

Tires. Their are decent DE tires cheaper then R888’s. There was a thread at BF.c in the track forum about this a couple months ago.

Exhaust. The Spec exhaust is kinda loud for my DD tastes. And I imagine you guys have emissions inspections so the cat would be an issue.

Improving times. To get better at AutoX do AutoX. Same for the track. Different DE organizations have different formats and different charms. You’ll have to try a few and see what you like best. Small events give lots of track time. Big events are big social weekends. NASA and BMWCCA events let you see racers and hang out with them. And their girlfriends, since we attract a lot of hot groupies.

My best to SD. I was there 81-88. Compared to today, it was practically a small town back then. Some of your 10 lane freeways, I remember as goat trails.

#4

if it is a racing shell type seat with high sides, stock 3 point belts will not fit your lap area properly and you’d be more likely to submarine - I don’t imagine any tech would allow that.

The likelihood of roof crush is less than the benefit in control/accident avoidance of a good seat/harness combo (if properly installed).

Stickier tires are good if you are at the stage of driving development to use them. Street tires teach you to be smooth because they don’t mask your unsmooth habits (differences in autox vs. track driving here). I wouldn’t worry about getting lightweight wheels until later in your progression.

Reliability, seat time, suspension, driver restraint are the things I would focus on as you’re learning.
cheers,
bruce

#5

The order I’d do those things would be:

  1. Springs
  2. Bushings (all, to include motor, trans, diff, CABS, RTAB’s, & subframe)
  3. At least a half cage, seats, & harnesses
  4. Wheels & tires

The reason for that order is the (1) and (2) will improve handling and allow you to refine your driving skills. Seats and harnesses definitely improve the driving experience on the track, but they should be a part of a complete safety system, which includes at least a roll bar or better yet a half cage. If the eventual goal is to race, there’s no point in spending money on a harness bar or roll bar that you’ll later have to replace with a cage.

You don’t say but it sounds like this car will, for at least a while, be driven on the street. Street driving and race seats & harnesses and/or the Spec E30 exhaust aren’t very compatible. The Spec Exhaust is loud and probably illegal based on noise alone. In California the car would not be legal with that exhaust as installation requires removal of the catalytic converters (and no modifications of the Spec exhaust are permitted except for minor mods necessary for proper fitment). Race seats aren’t the most comfortable things for extended driving and harnesses aren’t technically legal (not DOT approved). You can usually get away with harnesses on the street, but if law enforcement wants to get picky…

Sticky tires, in my opinion, should be the last in the list of improvements. They are appropriate when your skills have reached the point that the car and tires have become the limiting factor. You can learn driving skills just well on street tires (usually even better) than on race rubber.

#6

Great replies again, thanks.

  1. I think the springs is a no brainer. I’ll Probably go to the shop and order them tomorrow.
    Even the last instructor said they were too soft.

2.I’m leaning toward rims and tires next.
I like the 15x7 LTW5 because its one of only a few with correct fit 57.1mm centerbore and 25mm offset for a reasonable price. I want a set of dedicated autoX HPDE rims tires. Since I wont be in Spec E30 for a while maybe R888 arent the best choice for autoX HPDE’s I can go with 225/45-15’s too instead of 205/50/15 for now. R888 or NITO NT-01 in 45’s Maybe in 205’s Bridgestone RE11’s($100 rebate), Falken Azenis RT-615?

  1. Wait on seats till cage time or at least till proper harness time.
  2. Do bushings next.

Cheers,
Richard

#7

Delphin25 wrote:

[quote]Great replies again, thanks.

  1. I think the springs is a no brainer. I’ll Probably go to the shop and order them tomorrow.
    Even the last instructor said they were too soft.

2.I’m leaning toward rims and tires next.
I like the 15x7 LTW5 because its one of only a few with correct fit 57.1mm centerbore and 25mm offset for a reasonable price. I want a set of dedicated autoX HPDE rims tires. Since I wont be in Spec E30 for a while maybe R888 arent the best choice for autoX HPDE’s I can go with 225/50-15’s or 45’s too instead of 205/50/15 for now. Maybe Bridgestone RE11’s($100 rebate), Falken Azenis RT-615, NITO NT-01, Neova?
[/quote]

Soft tires will make it harder to learn car control. You’ll progress faster if you delay the transition to soft tires. I had ~70 track days before I went to a DOT-R tire (Toyo RA1). Sure, I may learn slower then most, but the idea’s the same for all.

Harder tires have a broader envelope of controllable slip, making it easier to learn to manage slip angle. And it’s nice that they tend be howl when they slip too. Softer tires give more peak grip, but the grip curve is more narrow. To the novice it will feel like you have grip and then you don’t.

Go get the bushings done so your car does what you tell it to do. Start thinking about soft tires after 50 track days.

#8

Makes sense Ranger.
Maybe I’ll do the springs and bushings at the same time.
Try that with my Yokohamas at BMWCCA AutoX May16th.
Save the R compounds for later.
1/8 mile Drag race May 8th too :slight_smile: just for fun
Oh, Safety reliability then performance
Car is safe for autoX HPDE at this point.
Ive achieved reliability after much work and expense.
Now I’m working on performance and seat time.

jlevie said:
2) Bushings (all, to include motor, trans, diff, CABS, RTAB’s, & subframe)
I have new or newer OEM bushings on motor trans and diff I believe, should I keep theese and do suspension with poly? Whats a good brand? I was going to get offset adjustable bushing to correct rear camber? Going to big fish motorsports on lunch break in a few minutes to order springs maybe bushings too.

OK springs ordered, AKG Bushings $300+ $300 labor± ugh!

   "Speed costs money. how fast do you want to go?"
#9

I would spend my $ on safety equipment and seat time. I put on the spec suspension and R comps at the same time, and saw a 7 second improvement. I wish I would have stayed on street tires, and a more stock suspension longer and made up some of that time with driver ability.

#10

Ranger wrote:

GUIDE SUPPORT CAMBER CORRECTION +/- 30MIN. 31-33-1-139-484 $104.35 each.

They are usually termed “crash mounts”. Used by body shops to bring a stock car into alignment after the front end was tweaked in a wreck. None of us have them, because I think everyone uses camber plates.

Delphin - I’d suggest going to camber plates vs. these guys. Putting these on means you will have to do the front suspension twice, and two alignments.

I am a big believer in doing Tranny, Engine and Diff bushings together. They work together on a unit that all bolts together, you mix rubber with delrin, you are causing things to move against their mounts with differently. Might not cause trouble, but I would not be going out with old motor mounts and a brand new delrin diff mount - probably no issue, but…

#11

jblack good points, thanks.
Since I already have new engine and tranny mounts and I think the diff bush is OK. Mechanics going to check them out when we do the springs. I may leave the drive train alone for now and do the suspension bushing with AKG polyurethne (sp?) and the new “crew chief” suggests M3 solid ruber front CAB bushings also? Sounds good. Still have to wait a few paychecks for the bushings though. Delrin sounds a bit harsh.
I checked out GC plates he had on one customer car, looks good, but I already have the offest BMW ones which are working fine for now so I’ll wait. Maybe I can sell the ST springs and order the bushings.
They also had an E30 with an alchohol injected supercharged E36 318 motor in it at the shop. LOL
H&R Race springs are on order from Turner should be at the shop this week.
Should I remove the spring pads or leave them in or can I get thinner ones??
Dang. Sometimes this is alot of work trying to figure out how to “do it right the first time”. lol

#12

Delphin25 wrote:

I’ve been wondering how long everyone would let that one slide. :laugh: :laugh:

I think the site is owned by Carter Hunt, our intrepid leader/humble servant/benevolent dictator/heavy handed authoritarian :laugh: depending on your perspective.

This site wouldn’t be the same without Ranger, though.

The only answer I can help you with from your last post is re: spring pads. Several thicknesses are available. I bought a selection from Pelican, I believe. They can be useful in corner weighting and playing with rake, but those setup changes are so minute and esoteric that I probably shouldn’t own a selection of spring pads. :slight_smile:

Steve D.

#13

Check out the Grassroots motorsports site for the build history of Scott Lear’s E30. For their car, they greatly improved their corner weights by just removing the drivers rear spring pads. Their car may have weight removed differently than your car, so this is probably just a starting point. As Steve mentioned you can get different thickness pads, front and rear. I would also not mix delrin with hard poly or rubber. FYI, if you get hard poly trans mounts you are going to get more vibration (check with Chuck at Factory 3 for details and advice).
Ed

#14

Gotta say thanks for all the input.
I am so so stoked. Major major handling improvements for this round of the budget build up. The H&R Race springs from Turner were the big improvement.
We left the spring pads in, no problem. Still major drop from those tall ST springs I had, over an inch in the rear, got some camber in the fronts now too. Now it sits like a '87 Spec E30. :cheer:
Exact same ground clearances as the shop owners supercharged 318is with GC coilovers, of course not as stiff.
Replaced ABS relay ($35) now I have ABS for the first time, should help.
New OEM Bosch 3 BAR fuel pressure regulator, old one was fading ($60 ugh looks nice)
Got 4 new Yokohama AVS ES100 205 60 14’s on the basketweaves for now.
BMWCCA AutoX Sat, can’t wait. Ready to start logging some HPDE’s this year.
Drive line bushings look great, rubber. Willl leave them for now.
Front CAB OK, rears worn. They recommended AKG poly for rear and the M3 solid rubber up front??? Is this good?

#15

Had to update this thread. Too long waiting to do this.
But all the AKG Poly race 75D bushings have been ordered.
$500
Front CAB
Rear trailing arms
Rear subframe.
rear reinforcment weld in kits (to adjust camber toe I believe)
Diff, trans, and engine mounts also in race poly 75D
Ive got a ways to go still, but thisis a huge step forward for me.:cheer:
Midnight Oil Motors is doing the work. :slight_smile:
They debuted thier SpecE30 last week at Cali Speedway!!!
Any more sugestions on what else I should do to the suspension while we are tearing it all down and putting it back together???

#16

Can you explain to me where the ABS relay is found? I think i have to replace mine but don’t know where it is. I have an '87.

#17

behind the driver under tray, usually zip-tied to the ABS module.

#18

yeh cant remember if it was a relay or fusable link or fuse it was done at the shop while I wasnt there watching and asking a bunch of questions as usual. However this last time it was the ABS brain under the dash that came loose and was just hanging there so maybe make sure that is secures also if you go in there.
hmm looking at GC camber plates now …expensive…
Prefer the Vorshag (Midnight) even more expensive…

#19

Delphin25 wrote:

:woohoo: