Thread for info on how long tires last

#21

This is stuff I was saying a year ago, I was PO’d as TOYO has switched on us 3 times and we are basically a slave to them. We were getting bad or no info from Toyo, stuff like "we have a bunch of RA1’s in a warehouse so now they are legal again… I had a friend who got DQ’d for using the wrong Toyo, Just total BS. They basically have a captive market and changed the compound so it just does not last. I agree totally with 4-6 cycles especially if one of your tracks is CMP. I have been saying a long time I would rather run on an STS tire like the T1R…

I ran GTS-1 last weekend on R888’s that someone else paid for and will be running GTS-1 this weekend at VIR. I do not have any kind of hard technical info as I am just not that kind of guy. I don’t practise on my good tires and after being the fastest SE car last July on fresh tires at VIR I think I was around 6th or 7th the next weekend at CMP…a track where I have won races and poles…

Al
Not buying Toyos this year

#22

i am being given a set of goodyears to test in TT and gts1. wouldn’t mind suggestions on how we can get an accurate way to compile data so we can pass it on to nasa. also the hardness you speak of measured by a durometer sounds interesting perhaps we will aquire 1 before the next event.

perhaps running out and buying someones old tires that have been sitting in a garage isn’t going to be a magic bullet either.

sure would help if they would give us back the old rubber (allegedly)

i would imagine that all the groups using any other tire is going to have to change the set up of the car and that will relly mess us up.

maybe i should drive slower:(

#23

monster e30 wrote:

I appreciate what you are trying to do to get us a more economical and/or better performing tire, but given NASA’s long-standing relationship with Toyo, a manufacturer change is a pipe dream.

My suggestion? Sell those Goodyears and use the money to buy a pyrometer. Do some rigorous tire temp testing and get your car set up to use the Toyos well. Even temps all across the tread = happy tires. Happy tires that aren’t being slid around don’t grain and will last for several good heat cycles.

[quote]maybe i should drive slower:([/quote]Toyos go off if you abuse them. Keep abusing/sliding them around and they will wear horribly.

PS - We are on the same tire as Spec Miata. That has its advantages. They are widely available shaved or full tread. If we go to our own tire brand, widespread availability suffers.

#24

I haven’t experienced the horrid wear that is being described here, although I do find the newer RA-1s to not last as long as the old ones. I did have my share of problems with the R888, though. They were just much different and it took a while to figure them out. At that point, the RA-1 was out of production and so we had to figure out how to avoid the groove of doom, graining, and grip. It turned out that they needed higher pressures to work in their happy zone. Around 44 or so.

The RA-1s are not back because there was a warehouse full of them. It’s because the racers requested them. Especially for the spec classes. From a manufacturing perspective, it does not surprise me that they’re using the R888 compound, as it would likely be prohibitively expensive to produce 2 compounds for the same overall number of consumers while also keeping the price point.

So, I think we’re all having to go through this learning curve again. Some out there may already have it figured out, others may never figure it out. But figuring out how to make the setup work for us is part of racing that separates the fast from the slow.

#25

As I wait for my car to come back from the cage builder, this tire stuff bothers me. I was ok with the idea that the RA1 wears like iron. That made the trade off from an actaully competant race tire to this one ok in my book.

A tire that costs $135 + 15 for shaving leaves me really close to the price of a real R compound that apparently now will last just as long.

The tire shaving game isn’t the same for everyone.

A softer sidewall tire like the RA1 will also cause most people to use more camber than usual. Upgrade to an actual R compound and we’d probably use less depending on make.

If the tires don’t last as long, you end up with the same issue as an R compound. The guys on a budget will start not shaving them to get more life, and the guys with money will just buy new tires every weekend. Isnt’ that what you guys were trying to avoid?

#26

Foglght wrote:

[quote]A softer sidewall tire like the RA1 will also cause most people to use more camber than usual. Upgrade to an actual R compound and we’d probably use less depending on make.[/quote]Camber don’t cost nuthin’ so I use as much as is legal. :wink:

Let’s not react too severely. Bear in mind that CMP is the worst track in the Southeast (worst on the East Coast?) for tire life and time penalty for used tires.

The lap time gap between stickers and 10 heat cycle tires at every other track I have run is WAY closer than CMP (sometimes 0 difference).

#27

I would rather not react at all, but tires are the most expensive item on the car (per race season). Unless you are that guy Ranger and replacing motors all the time.

I’m somewhat sensitive on the issue considering this type of situation (not tires specifically) was one of the reasons I had to stop racing last time.

When people start talking about cutting the heat cycles in half compared to what I am used to with the RA1, this worries me. I didn’t budget for 2 extra sets of tires this race season. This is the difference between nationals and no nationals.

Also looking at potentially not shaving tires at this point. Looking at buying a new set in the next month or so, and this information is critical to my decision.

I had no idea this was an issue, and would like to be as proactive about it as possible.

#28

With these “new” RA-1s, is there any advice or consensus on pressure to run?
Does psi have a relationship to longevity?

In past, I have been around 29-31 psi cold, depending on the corner. I know I should prolly be measuring hot temps and get a pyrometer, but I’m just not there yet.

#29

Lets not get too excited until more data comes in.

Cold pressures aren’t meaningful, only hot pressures are. Cold pressures are simply what you play with to get your hot pressures. That relationship between cold an hot varies with setup, car, driver, track ambient temp, how hard you’re driving, phase of the moon, and if you got lucky the night before.

Last year I had my best ever Qual at RA on a set that was >1yr old and already had 2 race weekends. My guess is that if the tires hadn’t been so old, they’d a done ok on a 4th weekend too.

Because my durometer is saying the current set is still good, they’re about to get their 4th race weekend.

Re. racing on unshaved tires. You’ll do that once. Then you’ll decide that if you are spending many hundreds of dollars to do a race weekend, running 2sec/lap slower isn’t worth trying to eke out a little more savings with unshaved tires. And in the summer you risk them overheating and blistering.

#30

As I stated earlier in this thread, this is not the RA1 we are used to from the past. With that said, we do just need to figure it out. Some guys have already, some of us have not and will need to do testing, research, study, listening, experimenting etc.

Personally I plan to do some extra testing at a track I know well.

For guys with a tight budget, which most of us have at some level (otherwise we would racing P Cup Cars) We will need to figure out pressures, heat cycling and chassis set up to get the most out of them.

For the racer above who mention NOT shaving, I would highly discourage that path, My experience is that a non shaved tire will NOT last as long. It builds up too much heat. Now if you are way off the pace and simply getting your licensing and rookie license out of the way, then full tread is OK.

We will be OK. Let’s race!

PS guys who light up rears on standing starts tend to go through tires a little quicker:(

Shoe

#31

once again CALL toyo directly!

call and send emails to yout regional director ASAP!

mark your tires each time they are heat cycled put a log book together with air temp and track temps.

talk to other drivers in other groups who run these tires!

SPREAD THE WORD!

I talked to a pca team owner today and he thought that they were different and he is going to address it with the rest of his group because they chose this tire because of it’s legendary durablity!

ONLY AS A GROUP CAN WE MAKE A DIFFERENCE!

#32

I’m with you guys. I had 16 heat cycles on one set last year, and they went out noticeably within one session. I had to borrow a new set from Simon to make it through the rest of the weekend.

#33

I was putting this into a different thread, but I decided that it would be better to add it to an old tire thread.

I recall some years ago folks used to say that Toyos were fastest just before they corded. I used to buy my tires used on Ebay and in my first couple yrs I used to do 2 weekends per month. I went thru a lot of used tires and I never found them fastest before they corded. Don’t get me wrong, they weren’t necessarily awful before they corded, they just weren’t at their best.

In the last year or two folks have been saying that Toyo changed their compound. On that issue I’ve never really formed my own opinion because I’ve not read anything that really struck me as rigorous. But last weekend’s 5 days at Barber has me pretty agreeable to the idea that the compound has changed. I took 5, yes 5 sets of tires with me. I DE’d on a set from early 2010 and raced on a set from late 2010 and another from early 2011. I’d have to say that they were just awful. None of them were corded, mind you, but they might have well have been severely corded for all the traction they provided. There’s simply no way they were as good as the used tires I ran on 3-4yrs ago.

So when we talk about tires and potentially leaving Toyo, it’s important to compare possible alternative tire choices to what RA1’s are today, not to what they were in our romantic memories of 3-4yrs ago. RA1s of today are used up in 3 weekends. They still look fine after 3 weekends mind you, but they are still thrashed.

I don’t know anything about other tires, but if a bunch of folks said that there was some other tire that cost the same and could either last 5 weekends, or was as durable as RA1s used to be, I’d be all for it. As it sits now, the cost of tires is almost as much as the event fee.

#34

having run dunlop star specs in several lump races i can say without a doubt they are sticky, predictable, long lasting, and good in the rain. i drove our “spare” 20yo 200k mile street legal acura integra to cmp last weekend for a hpde and ran a 1:55 on the four worst tires we had leftover from this season. even at full tread they’re not squirmy like ra1 and they last seemingly forever (after the 24 hour chump race at vir we determined that with a single rotation they could easily have lasted the entire race, and very likely a lot more). $119 from tire rack, they don’t need shaving, and are locally available just about anywhere. plus the last two sets i bought had an $80 rebate. i’d gladly race on them even without contingency money, the guys who win toyo bucks every weekend might not benefit but the rest of us would come out way ahead.

#35

Current pricing (before tax / shipping / mounting / etc):

SM6
Price: $173.95

RA1 (Shaved)
Price: $148.00 plus $16.00 for shaving: $164.00

At least the SM6’s are good for 10-16 heat cycles before turning to junk. Current compound still has same characteristics as older tires. One heat cycle, let them sit then go run them.

#36

If we want to go outside the usual box on tires, I’d suggest the Kumho Ecsta XS. First, let me say that I have never been a big fan of Kumho tires. A friend suggested I try them on my E46 M3 for autocross and track. My reaction was “what??? Both?”. These tires have really impressed me. I can drive my car with these to an autocross, get them to stick everywhere and drive home. Drive to the track the following weekend, run 8 sessions then drive home with no issues or difference in feel.

I have been blown away by how good they are.

‘Spec’ size for us are $99 st Tire Rack - no shaving needed.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=Ecsta+XS&sidewall=Blackwall&partnum=05WR5EXS&tab=Sizes

#37

[quote=“TrackRat” post=60402]Current pricing (before tax / shipping / mounting / etc):

SM6
Price: $173.95

RA1 (Shaved)
Price: $148.00 plus $16.00 for shaving: $164.00

At least the SM6’s are good for 10-16 heat cycles before turning to junk. Current compound still has same characteristics as older tires. One heat cycle, let them sit then go run them.[/quote]
3 events is 15 heat cycles, although some of them are pretty short. Is 10-16 heat cycles a clear step forward?

#38

The Other “Switch Tires” Thread

I don’t want to sound defeatist, but a switch from Toyo won’t happen.

My perspective may be a bit unique as SM Series Director in the SE. When SCCA announced they would be on Hoosiers in 2012 for SM, I lobbied hard with all the NASA powers that be. To have a class split between 2 sanctioning bodies by tires is bad, obviously.

So strong are the ties between NASA and Toyo (read: contract through the end of 2012) that discussions of matching the move to Hoosiers ended immediately.

All your energy should be put toward learning the care and feeding of the new RA1.

PS - Statements like “RA1s are fastest just before they cord” are track and tire-specific (and spoken in reference to MidOhio I believe). I can’t get more than 15 cycles from a shaved RA1 but some of our SE tracks tend to be abrasive. As I’ve learned from others (and a little of my own experience). MidOhio is different from every other track out there.

PPS - While I like Toyo’s contingency program, I would support a program giving away the same amount of money deeper into the field. Or some random tire $ outside the top 10. I think we have 0% latitude to move from Toyos but probably a bit more latitude to design a contingency program that the masses like better.

#39

I’m with Steve on the differences between tracks. I took a set of 2010 RA1’s that I ran at nationals, at 8 or 9 cycles I got into 1:43s at Mid Ohio. I was at VIR with the very same tires at 11 heat cycles this month and they did not feel very good. They didn’t seem to have the grip they had at Mid-Ohio. I then put on my set of 2 heat cycle tires (which at Mid-Ohio never seem as fast) and ran two seconds faster at VIR.

Mid Ohio definitely seems to favor older tires, but this might not be the case at a lot of the other tracks. I tend to be able to get about 16 heat cycles out of a set shaved to 3/32. At 3/32 they seem fairly consistent until they cord at 16 or 17 cycles.

#40

[quote=“Steve D” post=60406]The Other “Switch Tires” Thread

I don’t want to sound defeatist, but a switch from Toyo won’t happen.

My perspective may be a bit unique as SM Series Director in the SE. When SCCA announced they would be on Hoosiers in 2012 for SM, I lobbied hard with all the NASA powers that be. To have a class split between 2 sanctioning bodies by tires is bad, obviously.

So strong are the ties between NASA and Toyo (read: contract through the end of 2012) that discussions of matching the move to Hoosiers ended immediately.

All your energy should be put toward learning the care and feeding of the new RA1.
[/quote]
I recall Carter saying a year or two ago that we could leave Toyo for a different tire if we (meaning him and the regionals) decided to. But maybe what you found is that it’s not as easy as Carter envisioned.

Theoretically tho, if a tire was found that did last longer, we could lobby for the tire change and then get it when the current Toyo contract ended. But that assumes that 1) We could get good data on tire longevity, 2) We are capable of forming a consensus on anything, and 3) NASA would look kindly on us weakening their sponsorship bargaining position by attempting to go our own way on tires.