The Divebomb...


#1

Cosm3os and I are discussing my Saturday video in another thread. Towards the end of the video I attempt a high risk pass in turn 10a. In his analysis he refers to the move as “That pass on the white car was probably a divebomb in most guys’ eyes”…

I have heard the term before but do not fully understand it…I would love to understand the DB more from peoples perspective…Its definition, reason for, defence of, how its viewed, etc…

Trying to learn some insider tips here… )

Any video examples would be great too…

Thanks


#2

The appendix of the CCR is a good place to start. Diagrams of a variety of situations and who is in the right and wrong when they happen.

Short version of divebomb, (well there are probably two), but the one I prefer is taking an inside line you have not earned the right to have. Whether that is good hard racing or a sh*thead move is why there are two versions.

Another way to look at it, in BMW CR, if you perpetrate what the stewards call a divebomb and there is contact, the likely result is that you will be on probation. (The first half of 13/13)


#3

Here’s the way I look at it (having raced only in NASA). The 3/4 rule says if you get your front wheel to me, you have a right to be there and I have to give you room. The reasoning is that if you are there, I should be able to see you (if I don’t, I’m doing something wrong). So to me, a divebomb is where the inside guy gets to the door before turn in but without any time for an aware driver to have an opportunity to appreciate it and react by not turning in.

Like I said in the other thread, we’re talking .5 sec making the difference between a divebomb and a great late pass.


#4

In my mind, a dive bomb is when the passing car doesn’t have legal overlap by turn in. If racing full out the car ahead is fully committed at turn in and will require all of the the track to make it through the corner. There is very little that driver can do to make room, hence the danger to both cars.


#5

Thanks for the replies so far…


#6

There is no precise definition of “divebomb”, it’s just a word used for “color”.

Read the passing rules in the NASA CCR over and over again to make sure that you understand them precisely.

IMO there is a mistake in the NASA CCR passing rules. I never noticed it before. The problem is para 25.4.3 where it says that if the passer has his front wheel up to the driver then the passer has the “right to the line”. I think what it should say is “right to be there” not “right to line”. This is stated (IMO) correctly in 25.4.2 and restated in Appendix A.

But back to passing in general…it’s really important to understand to a degree sufficient such that you’re aware even in a knife fight…precisely when in a pass you have the right to 3/4s of a car width, and when the pass is complete and you own the line. Most of our impacts would be avoided if folks played by those rules, instead of attempting to bully their way past in the hopes that the passer will give way.


#7

IMO a divebomb is a super late pass on the inside of a corner where the passing car is carrying way to much speed and has no chance of making the corner. In this scenario the lead car will always turn in to take the apex and the two cars meet there with contact. What is being called a divebomb here is basically the definition of a late inside pass. All of us have pulled it off and had it happen to us. I watched the video and while it was just unfolding I figured that corner would not end well but you were never out of control. You gave it a look and it wasn’t there so at the end you gave up the apex just like you should have. As Patton will always say know who your racing because another driver might have given you room. You gotta know the track too, a pass like that at 10a will all but kill your exit speed and the car you’re passing will more than likely repass you by the bridge. I don’t think you did anything wrong.


#8

It is really not a matter of the passing car having too much speed to make the corner, though that does happen. It is more of a matter of the passing car not having overlap before or by turn in where the car being passed can be aware of the pass and make an adjustment to leave the passing car room.


#9

By now, you should be aware that your question has no real answer, because everyone answers it somewhat differently. To some degree, I agree with parts of what everyone said. My opinion is no more right or wrong than anyone elses.

I think a dive bomb is just when a guy makes a well timed, well executed, very late brake move. In my opinion, there are two kinds of dive bombs. Legal and illegal, and which is which depends to a large degree on what club you race with, and what their rules are with regard to turning in and/or sharing the corner.

NASA has the “turn in” rule, which says if the passing car has the front tire to the driver of the car being passed AT THE NORMAL TURN IN POINT, the passing car has the right to the line. It is implicit in the rule that the passing car has to have that position under control, meaning you can’t come sliding in, crossed up, sideways, and claim the line. No matter how you say it, this is a pretty aggressive rule, and at high speeds, can leave a literally spit second decision as to who has the “right to the line”. It makes for good racing, and occasionally contact.

While I can’t cite it song and verse, PBOC’s (Porsche and BMW Owner’s Club) rule is that if you are anywhere close to someone else in a corner, you share the corner, and noone has a right to the turn or any point of it. You must coexist. PCA has a similar rule. I believe BMWCCA does as well, although I’ve never actually run with them.

In every club that I’ve ever run, the passing car has the responsibility of insuring a safe pass. Getting into contact with a far faster car in another class is just ignorant and it shouldn’t ever happen. Be aware of fast cars in other classes, hold your line, be predictable, use a point by if necessary, and get them by you efficiently.

Now, class racing for position is another story, and it can be incredibly hard to get by another racer. A well executed dive bomb is often the only way by, and I would suggest that more races are won by a late race dive bomb than with any other move, which is why I believe controlled late braking is an essential skill to perfect. This requires a good understanding of your brakes, the age of your tires (try it more often and more aggressively on fresh tires - don’t try it much at all on your 20th heat cycle), and the grip of your tires (a dive bomb doesn’t work very well at the end of an hour long session if you have abused the tires the whole time). Much goes into a quality dive bomb, but almost nothing is more satisfying.

Want to protect from a dive bomb? You can do it without being accused of a block. NASA says that you get one lane change between turns. If you are worried about someone dive bombing you, drive right down the center of the track. This leaves the passing car one of two options: 1. Try the pass even lower to the inside than you, which makes for a tight radius and slow entry and exit, so it usually doesn’t work; or 2. They have to take the outside line, which means you have the right to the track out, and there isn’t much passing on the outside of a turn. The caveat to this move is that if the other driver takes the outside line, they will likely have a higher exit speed than you, since you will have somewhat chopped off the turn with the middle of the road turn in. So, if you are protecting and turning in from mid-track, get the car to the apex so you can block that off, and track it out where you need to be, which should also block that off from the passing car.

As I said at the beginning. Nobody is going to agree with what a dive bomb is, but I don’t think it is a bad thing. Make your own decision as to what it is, and how you execute it. And certainly dont bend up a car on your rookie permit trying one!


#10

It is really not a matter of the passing car having too much speed to make the corner, though that does happen. It is more of a matter of the passing car not having overlap before or by turn in where the car being passed can be aware of the pass and make an adjustment to leave the passing car room.[/quote]

I understand that Jim, my point was not every late braking pass to the inside of the corner will have the passing car have position as defined in the rules. Every pass is different. If we went just by the rules written in the ccr and you turned in to the apex every time the passing car didn’t technically have position as defined by the rules we’d have a lot more crashes. We’ve all made that pass and we have all given space to allow that pass happen. At the end of the day you should know the car is there to your inside and give position if you feel necessary. A dive bomb to me is when you get broadsided in the door at the apex of a corner out of nowhere.

While the CCR does lay out the rules and they should be learned and followed to the best of every drivers ability. In the heat of the race we all push our luck and make it work with cooperation with the car we’re passing. At the end of the day the passing car is responsible to make a clean pass, but it takes cooperation from both cars. If any of us followed the rules for being passed and only gave position when it says you should we would never finish a race without contact. You have to learn that sweet spot with experience and you can’t learn it in DE, I’m just saying Jon had a good learning experience and did a good job giving up the apex.


#11

I disagree.

  1. Where is this “turn-in” rule?

  2. Where is this emphasis on “the normal turn in point” in the application of passing rules?

  3. IMO this idea that the inside car “has the line” before the pass is completed is just an error. It’s contradicted by the CCR in a different paragraph. If it made sense, surely you’d see a similar rule in some other CCR. It’s not in PCA, BMWCCA nor SVRA. I bet it’s no where.

  4. The idea that the passing car “owns the line” before the pass is completed doesn’t even make sense. When the passer dives inside to attempt to take away a turn, the passee is on the line. The passer is going off the line to pass. There’s no way that while the pass is still not completed and the cars are still overlapped that the car that is off the line can “own” the line that the other guy is currently occupying.


#12

That is the definition of a dive bomb and the problem. When that happens the car being passed isn’t looking for a car along side (their attention being focused ahead) and may be out of grip for any changes to their line that doesn’t involve an off track excursion or contact. Not to mention that the passing car has just violated the rules.


#13

Gress:

You’re being over technical. Ask the questions that I answered at any NASA driver’s meeting and listen for the answers. I don’t scour the CCR, but I have been preached what I wrote in every NASA driver’s meeting that I’ve ever attended.


#14

That is the definition of a dive bomb and the problem. When that happens the car being passed isn’t looking for a car along side (their attention being focused ahead) and may be out of grip for any changes to their line that doesn’t involve an off track excursion or contact. Not to mention that the passing car has just violated the rules.[/quote]

I remember doing a comp school with MA and telling the students that there could be races where they look out the mirror just as much as the windshield. You have to know the cars are there. You shouldn’t ever turn into apex without knowing for sure a car isn’t there. Unless like I mentioned earlier someone comes from several cars back and smacks you in the door. I don’t think of myself as a risk taker on track but if I’m bumper to door with you going into a corner and you turn down not knowing I’m there, well you should not be racing.


#15

[quote=“BigKeyserSoze” post=71298]Gress:

You’re being over technical. Ask the questions that I answered at any NASA driver’s meeting and listen for the answers. I don’t scour the CCR, but I have been preached what I wrote in every NASA driver’s meeting that I’ve ever attended.[/quote]
I am 3/4 German. I like rules. Clearly understood, the fewer the better, but rules nonetheless. If we don’t all agree on what the rules are or what the rules mean, we should either pull out the CCR, or ask the the CCR be changed to make something more clear.

We both know the kinds of fruits and nuts we hang out with on race weekends. Every weekend we hear “I went inside and then he turned in on me”. We’re a long way from agreement on what the CCR says. Lets get common agreement on that and then we can poll the fruits we call our racing buddies.


#16

BigKeyserSoze Thanks for the input…I guess I was not expecting a definitive answer, I have gotten what I was looking for and that was the discussion to let me into the thinking of the people I will be racing with. I have allot to learn regarding this “race craft”. Unfortunately for all of you, I will be learning at your expense… :evil: :evil: :evil:

B) Really appreciate the open dialogue…Thanks