Swirlpots? Fuel starvation issues...

#1

Does anyone make a relatively easy to install swirlpot or any other device to allow a SE30 to drink down every drop of gas? I don’t want to yank the tank and change the pumps, lines, etc., seems to me that there must be an easier way to do this.

I’m not wanting to start a discussion about the legality of such a device. This is a thought for the enduro, but it is something that should be allowed in the rules, so that cars that want a fighting chance at winning an enduro can also run the sprint races.

#2

Aah to hell with it. Lets debate whether it is legal too. Seems to me it is, the rules allow for a change of fuel pumps, lines, tank baffles, etc. Thoughts? This doesn’t increase performance at all, all it would do is allow someone to use all of their fuel during a race.

#3

I have no issue with fuel level but I know lots of the guys do, so it would be something I would support as a rule change as long as it has the proper guidelines as to not be a safety issue.

As far as “other devices” there used to be accumulator available (http://www.iemotorsport.com/bmw/E30-fuel-intake/e30fuelacc.html) but I believe it was a VW part that is NLA. We could potentially have a fabricated part as another “spec” part if the rule makers where in agreement.

#4

I guess the real question is, what do these things do?

Check this link

http://www.ebay.com/itm/16121118899-BMW-Bosch-0438170007-Fuel-Air-Accumulator-VW-Volvo-/151167888089?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23324eead9&vxp=mtr

I’m guessing that you interrupt the return fuel line, but I’m not sure what you do with the interrupted line. The funny part about this is, everyone says the cure to the fuel problem is a new tank and new pumps, but what a swirlpot fixes is in essence a pickup problem, which changing the tank and pumps doesn’t fix. I just want to use all the gas. Thoughts?

#5

A couple yrs ago there was a rule change re. fuel that brought back the OEM fuel pressure regulator and allowed us some fuel system freedom otherwise. IIRC, the intent of that change was to allow folks some freedom to beat fuel issues, but by bringing back the OEM FPR, that kept everything fair. My point is that I think there’s a general acceptance of reasonable non-standard fuel pump/tank/line/accumulator ideas. So if you come up with an idea and it works well, as long as it doesn’t provide performance advantage, write up a rule change and submit it.

I used to have one of those IE accumulators but I never got around to installing it. There wasn’t much to it. A pint size plastic container with 4 ports. You interrupt the Return from the fuel rail and you interrupt the Feed to the high pressure pump.

I read reports from some folks that it worked well and others that it didn’t help .

#6

For a proper racecar, is there any solution other than a purpose built fuel cell, with all the plumbing that goes with?

However, this being Spec E30, the most elegant solution I have seen is a dual-pump setup. Bimmerworld had an instruction sheet floating around the internet about dual pump setups on E36s…E30’s are similar. It won’t get ALL the fuel out of the tank, but has helped me with starvation.

-Vic

#7

LOL!!! OK, I just caught my non-Freudian slip here. They’re NOT similar! They’re NOT similar!!! THEY’RE NOT SIMILAR!!! EVERYONE JUST RELAX! CHILL OUT!! THE SKY IS NOT FALLING!! KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON!!

-Vic

#8

Well, at Ofest don’t they sometimes race valve covers? You know, put wheels on old VCs and do a gravity-style race like Soap Box Derby?

You might be onto something. Maybe we could combine the E30 and 36 classes in Fuel Tank Derby races. Wouldn’t that be fun!

#9

Hard to go wrong with a good old fashion gravity sport.

#10

[quote=“RRhodes” post=74973]Hard to go wrong with a good old fashion gravity sport.[/quote] Ya great, then the next time you invert and pull negative g’s your engine cuts out.

#11

[quote=“victorhall” post=74968]For a proper racecar, is there any solution other than a purpose built fuel cell, with all the plumbing that goes with?

-Vic[/quote]

I’ve run a lot of race cars in the past that don’t have fuel starvation issues with the stock fuel tank and pickup. I’ve also run full fuel cell cars that had tons of problems.

I’d like a simple solution for this, but I tend not to think about it since the sprint races are short enough not to worry with a full tank. The stock fuel tank is in a great spot and is of decent size.

#12

Guten Parts + Service bought up 50 of the last fuel accumulators in the world. Call Levent and tell him I sent you. If you have a dual pump system (lift pump in tank and external high pressure pump), this works.

#13

http://www.gutenparts.com/gps-fuel-reservoir-fuel-accumulator-e30.html

#14

Does anyone have a diagram of how the fuel system works? I had a 1987 that had a pump on the passenger side that, as far as I could tell, pumped fuel to the driver’s side, and then, I think, there was an external pump that pumped to the engine.

I believe on the newer models they changed this somewhat, but I dont understand what they did.

Getting a car to pick up all of its fuel should not be rocket science.

I guess what I envisioned a swirlpot looking like was a coffee can, with the in tank pump feeding fuel into the top of the coffee can (perhaps with a check valve on the top for rollover protection), with a hose coming off of the bottom of the coffee can feeding the inlet side of the high pressure fuel pump. Is my vision of this wrong?

#15

sidGo here

http://www.atlinc.com/pdfs/Racing/2012-ATL-RACING-CATALOG-web%2018.pdf

And look at the swirlpot on the lover right side of the page. Isn’t this the cure?

#16

The early models had a low pressure fuel pump on the right side the sent fuel to the high pressure pump under the left the left rocker near rear tire. A steel pipe under the drive shaft connected left tank to right tank.

I don’t know late models very well because I’ve not owned one. Late model cars deleted the low pressure fuel pump. Jim Levie is the most knowledgeable person I know on this stuff.

There is no silver bullet because the starvation problem can have different causes. The swirlpot in your link prob works like the IE model. If it was up to me I’d just get the IE pump from Gruven.

Levie worked long and hard on fueling issues. He ultimately rigged up some unique solution the details of which are here in the forum somewhere. He said the solution was bulletproof.

#17

I tried finding the Levie post previously but couldn’t. Any ideas where that post might be?

#18

I got 125 hits for “pump” by username jlevie. Here’s one of them http://spece30.com/forum/16-general-discussion/71025-looking-for-a-gas-tank-and-low-pressure-pump?limit=10&start=40#71535

#19

If you want it to work without have a good bit of capacity in swirl pot, you need something a bit more sophisticated. A proper swirl pot would have fittings at the bottom for fuel from the transfer pump in the tank, return fuel from the engine bay, and fuel supply to the high pressure pump as well as a fitting at the top to return fuel to the tank.

It would not be difficult to find a spot under the car for a swirl pot you can wrap a hand around. Anything much bigger would have to go into the trunk, be made of metal and plumbed with armored hoses. I much prefer a 63L tank with dual pumps.