Spec E30 vs Spec Miata


#1

IndyJim wrote in another thread:

[quote] Steve this is probably a new thread but I for one would be interested in a write up of the SM vs. SE30.
[/quote]

Jim -

Not sure what info you are seeking, but let me ramble a little bit.

A little background: I did a track day in my street car at Road Atlanta in October 2004. My instructor said, “Well, you’ve just had your first hit of crack cocaine!!” How prophetic!

Did a couple more track days in November & December. I started thinking that it was stupid to be putting my daily driver at risk on the track.

A friend said “we ought to buy a Spec Miata together and go racing!” Three months later I had gone through Panoz to get my SCCA license and bought an already-built SM. I had read about SM in a lot of car magazines and grew up hearing about SCCA racing. He still hasn’t bought a car or tried to get a race license. If we could get a Car and Driver writer to drive a Spec E30 and do an article on NASA racing, maybe SE30 would become a gateway drug alternative to SM.

As I began racing SM, I met and became friends with the NASA Southeast SM director, Jason Holland. I then got a NASA license and started racing with both sanctioning bodies. Having virtually identical rules really helps produce large fields in both. Advantage: Spec Miata.

After about 6 months of track days and races, I realized that if I got my wife interested in driving I could do twice as many track weekends (“Honey, let’s leave the kids with my Mom and we can spend some quality time together at Barber…”)) She fell for it and now is the terror of Peachstate PCA Group 3. :slight_smile:

As she started doing more events, I began worrying about having her in an open-top car. I convinced myself to build a new Spec Miata with seat sliders so we could both drive it. I also wanted to build a car that I knew everything about. Super safe cage & bulletproof reliability were my goals. During the cage building it became obvious that a sliding seat would not give me the head room I need (I’m 6’2" and she is 5’4" so a slider is a must).

I had been watching the SE30 races at various NASA events. Ever since terrorizing Athens in my college roommate’s '84 318, I have loved the E30 body style. Combined with the sweet sound of a straight 6 (reminds me of my high school buddy Joe’s 280Z) it is a much more appealing machine than the Miata to me on a visceral level. But I do think the Miata can be credited with re-igniting the sports car craze.

I think most SE30 guys are BMW fans (fanatics?) who get into racing. I think most SM guys want the most competitive entry-level racing they can find. They don’t really dig Miatas, per se, but they are cheap to run and have big fields.

Partially as an experiment to help my friend, Tom Fowler (OPM Autosports), expand his trackside service and race car rental business, I encouraged him to build an E30 for me. His business is about 90% Miatas now and I see SE30 as a way to broaden his base.

The other motivator was to build a car I knew I could fit a slider seat in. All in all, the E30 is probably 10-20% more expensive to build than a Spec Miata. You can get on track for under $10k in either SM or SE30 if you do a lot of work yourself and put in the bare minimum for safety equipment and new parts. A tub-up build is, of course, a lot more. But similar cost either way.

OK. So that’s how I got here. After one whole weekend of racing an E30 at nationals, let me share my opinions.

The car is much less of a handful than I thought it would be (in spite of the size/weight disadvantage vs SM). The motor pulls strong and sounds great.

The Miata’s suspension is much tighter and more adjustable, but the E30 can be properly corner weighted with spring pads, ballast location, and if you are creative, non-ballast location (a cool suit box, an extra fire bottle here and there, a spare tire filled with air that measures 100% humidity, etc. :wink: )

I feel a bit safer in the E30 (larger cabin, kick-a$$ 1.75" cage tubing, bigger windows to exit). But I feel like I can throw the Miata around easier to avoid trouble.

The SE30 championship race (18 cars?) had MUCH more contact than the +/-60 car “spec piñata” championship race. But the qualifying races were cleaner in the E30 than SM where there was one significant first-lap crash.

The SE30 guys seem to have about the same level of camaraderie as the SM guys. Post-race cookouts were happening for both groups.

SM is farther along the curve of people exploiting grey areas in the rules, so more loopholes have been closed. SE30 would be well served to take some pages from them. Want to rule out $40/gallon race gas? It’s easier now than later. Maximum HP & torque rule? Sounds like a good idea as a backstop for the specific engine modification rules. But right now I don’t think anyone at nationals had a to-the-limit “pro” motor in SE30. I think 80% of the Miata field did.

SM has been dogged by parity concerns between the different body style & engine combinations in the 1990 to 2005 models eligible for the class. The upside is there are plenty of donors. Downside is you get some “car of the year” builders who wait to see the rule changes, then build a new car each winter. SE30 is effectively a 325is-only class, but it would eliminate the C.O.T.Y. possibility if you sunset the 318’s, convertibles, etc.

SM has a significant advantage in the manufacturer support they get from Mazda. Mazdaspeed sells parts at a huge discount to racers. BMW parts are tougher to find and more expensive.

My plans are to keep racing both cars. I don’t know how much I will do it on the same weekend. I don’t think it helped me at nationals to switch back and forth. Fifteen minute sessions didn’t give me enough time to adjust my marks, driving lines, etc.

If the SE30 crowd could get traction with SCCA to have identical rules that would allow the cars to be competitive, that would provide a huge shot in the arm for the class. I don’t know the politics, but I know there are too damn many classes in both sanctioning bodies. If you have a class that can’t field 5 cars for the national championship, kill it. Sorry. Rant over.

Anyway, thank you guys for the warm welcome and I look forward to meeting more of you at a track soon!

Steve D.


#2

Great writeup Steve, and a very unique perspective.

Speaking of running SpecE30 in SCCA, a fellow chatted me up at Barber in June. Didn’t get his name, but said he was working on developing a ruleset for SpecE30 for SCCA. I believe he was from the AL or GA region.

I pointed him towards Carter, because of the intellectual property angle, and so on, but I don’t see a reason why they couldn’t/shouldn’t just adopt as written.

SCCA runs at RA several times/year, and personally I’ve never even attended one of their events. Guess I should get it in gear and check one of theirs out some day.

As they say in the South, ‘It might could happen’


#3

there is already an SCCA version of the Spec E30 rules in the Rocky Mountain division. Due to the way SCCA does some things, they can’t be identical (e.g. they have to build on the GCR rules).

http://coloradoscca.org/documents/RMDiv-SpecE30Rules2008.pdf
They are missing a couple of changes that happened between Dec 07 and the latest Spec E30 rules in Jan 08 (most notably, the spec exhaust). The SCCA Spec E30 Administrator intends to keep the rules as synced up as possible.

Any SCCA region can create a regional class and an enterprising SCCA member did this to try to get some crossover business (they did it for 944 Spec as well).

cheers,
bruce


#4

SCCA accepts NASA competition licenses now, but only regionally.


#5

Steve, thanks for the comparison.(Call at your convenience to talk more about Fowler and your car’s cut out problem 770-886-2500.)

Perhaps the title needs to be changed (can you edit?) to bring this information and discussion to the attention of those responsible for Spec E30 rules and administration.

Two key points: SCCA as an avenue to race (although I don’t see it happening, the SCCA would need the same rules, and that ain’t my call).

Need to revise/respond/clarify rules loopholes before the train leaves the station. Your post points out that there is work yet to be done.

Response?

Regards, Robert (looking for a new engine to enhance my straightaway talent?) Patton


#6

[quote]Steve D wrote:
The SE30 championship race (18 cars?) had MUCH more contact than the +/-60 car “spec piñata” championship race.[/quote]

Am I the only one that is bothered by that? Seems to me there is an attitude among some drivers that contact is expected.

In fact, the repeated hits from behind at the start of Saturdays race as I was trying to get it into 4th gear probably relate to my 4th gear failure on Sunday.


#7

Patton wrote:

Robert -

Ummm. I agree?:laugh:

Tom and I will give you a call about the engine cutting out and coming back. I will post video in another thread so I can get everyone’s opinions on what to check. I don’t want to just start throwing parts at the problem.

I would hate to be perceived as the new guy who shows up and wants to change the rules. You guys were doing fine before I showed up. If Carter and the other PTB’s want my input, I would be happy to share my thoughts on the rules as they are written.

I think the SE30 would slot very well in the mix with SCCA’s ITA and/or ITS run groups. Those are regional-only classes, so I don’t see it a problem that SCCA only recognizes NASA licenses for their regional races.

I personally think that there are plenty of racers to populate both SCCA and NASA events. There are things that each organization does supremely well and other areas where they fail. I believe cross-pollination of ideas between the two will make both organizations stronger and more responsive to their customers. Win-win.

Steve D.


#8

Steve D, poor communication on my part with the question, " Response?"

That question is directed to those powers-that-be folk(s) that preside over the fifedom of Spec E30.

I’m just a racer-dude.

Regards, Robert Patton


#9

Steve and all, and my good friend Robert:

As I manage the Rules for Spec E30, I like to hear suggestions, ideas, etc. And we all know that this group isn’t afraid to speak up.

:slight_smile:

The spare tire rule was to be published about a week ago but a small issue was brought to my attention. It will be fixed and published in the next day or so.

At Mid Ohio, pretty-much every driver that commented wants the stock airbox for next year, and for it to be completely stock.

The hp/tq numbers will be confirmed by the statistician and will be published after I discuss the final numbers with the Spec E30 Regional Directors. Currently, I’m waiting to get a copy of all the Spec E30 dyno runs from Mid Ohio. While I was able to grab a few copies, NASA paid for the runs and understandably felt that the information from those runs, belongs to them.

I was told that I can get the numbers and should have the package prepared in the next few days.

Carter


#10

Three weeks later…any updates from the rules maker(s)?

Thanks in advance, Robert Patton


#11

Four weeks.

Regards, Robert Patton


#12

Carter wrote:

[quote]Steve and all, and my good friend Robert:

As I manage the Rules for Spec E30, I like to hear suggestions, ideas, etc. And we all know that this group isn’t afraid to speak up.

:slight_smile: [/quote]

Carter -

Since you opened that door…

I sent you an email with some comments & questions about the rules.

Thanks for all your efforts!

Steve D.


#13

Five weeks.

Robert Patton


#14

My good friend Robert:

For sure, I should have settled this before now. It hasn’t been an issue at the track since the GRM guys had the funky spare tire/wheel but it is on the list of items that have been sent to the Spec E30 Regional Series Directors.

We’ve had some good discussions on several issues and I will report our progress to the group, here on the boards.

Also, I need your mailing address. I can’t find your email address so if you will reply to my email address, I’ll send something that you will like.

Carter


#15

Carter, Thank you. I’ll watch for updates as they appear in other posted locations.

Regards, Robert Patton

e-mail: rpatton@ix.netcom.com
Snail mail: 1150 Samples Industrial Drive
Cumming GA 30041


#16

Carter, just a nit in the rules - I posted a question and got no response so I suspect this is a grey area.

The rules allow any radiator basically same shape and size. I was considering an aftermarket radiator and it is not clear whether the expansion tank can be removed. I suspect it can be as part of the radiator “system”, but don’t want to guess. I thought it would be nice to get rid of the tank to clear up clutter in the engine compartment.

FWIW, I ended up going with a new stock replacement so it is no longer an issue for me, but again just an oppty to clarify that particular rule. I had no problem sourcing a new stock replacement and cooling is not an issue with it, so one option is to perhaps require stock configuration.

Thanks,
AJ