Spec E30 Philosophy

#21

Daniel, yes it is getting serious. When the field grows in your area to 26 cars like MA or 15 cars as in the SE, there is always speculation.ECM swapping has been discussed.Checking for opened boxes and replaced chips is not difficult to do.Injector colors are different for the higher flow "Mustang" injectors numbers. Fuel won’t do much good without compression and timing, but it is a great thought.Time will tell if pistons have to be checked, but thus far the cars tested are within a horsepower standard deviatiion.

Skeen is correct on differentials.

Carter has a good program for shock testing.

I look forward to some methods for testing in the field.

Regards, Robert Patton

#22

ECU swapping/testing would be as easy or easier than the rear shock swapping - four bolts, one plug, installation is the reverse of removal.

#23

I honestly don’t care what the guy next to me has done to the ECU. If the rest of his motor is stock he’s not doing much. I care greatly what he’s done to his shocks.

I’ve done a bit of looking into the diff thing. The only two things I’ve seen in the copy of the factory manual I have is that there is a rolloff jig that checks simply for pass fail diff function. And that there are specified build specs. Other than simply using the torque specifications there is no actual number used to determine "25% lockup". The other issue is that the LSD discs sold on the market now are either ZF or custom cut steel with aftermarket coatings. There are several companies that readily do coatings of different types. Think of the choices we have for brake pads, the same is true with the coatings on these clutches. As much as you try to come up with a majic number, with as complex as these diffs are, I just think it’s impossible to police or protest without a teardown. On a brand new diff you might see X number on the bench, but what about once the discs have broken in? Or once they are hot on track?

#24

Rob, Can anyone really take satisfaction in a win they cheated to get?

#25

I think it would be a good idea to use a whistler to check cumbustion chamber volume as well.

#26

At what point do you stop "checking" and start racing?

You can check everything you want. As long as my car is rebuilt EXACTLY as it was before you tore it down, heck you can check the weight of each piston if you so desire. I know that my car is built to SPEC so I won’t care that you check, but say I’m doing well and placing for points each event, are you going to tear down my car every weekend? Because that is a huge point that will discourage any person who wants to race in this series.

Why not take the Honda Challenge approach? One full inspection at the beginning and end of every season. At any point during the season a person can file a protest at the cost of $250 to which the car will be fully inspected. If something illegal is found they lose the race points from the weekend and get suspended from the next weekend. Second time they get suspended for the season. Third time gone! Cars that place for points go to impound for weight check. You could add a few more checks such as the shocks. It also makes the person who wants to complain pony up and really look at why that person is faster then they are.

It cuts down on this checking every car every weekend and with stiff penalties should help to serve to keep people honest.

While I understand this series is new and growing rapidly and the directors are trying to keep up, you also need to keep the interest of people who want to join the ranks without scaring the ever living crap out of them, that the first time the place in the top three their car will be broken down to every nut and bolt.

I think most of the people in this series are honest enough and open enough to give any person knowledge of their car. Heck I’ll help anyone get their car ready as long as mine is done, and I’ll have a build sheet with everything thing I’ve done to the car and motor handy to give to any who wants some knowledge of my car. Maybe some people aren’t the willing, but to that person I have to ask, what do you think you are actually going to win in this series? And eventually their attitude will get them caught of their illegal doings.

Sorry for my long rant but this checking this and that is growing long, strenuous, and unnecessary.

#27

badboypolar wrote:

When did anyone talk about tearing a car down? We are suggesting simple things to check, like diff lock up, springs, camber, shocks, HP/TQ, and weight. What I suggested (Checking Cumbustion Chamber Volume) is as easy as taking a spark plug out. I don’t think this will discourage anyone from joining the series.

I get what your saying but I think you might have gotten the wrong impression.

#28

Gasman wrote:

The sad part is alot of people enjoy being sneaky and winning with an illegal car.

Let’s just hope those people don’t join SPEC E30

#29

Oh and FWIW if you have driven a car with a welded diff then you understand why no-one has one in this series. The car will oversteer the entire time. It’s great for drifting not for racing.

#30

MikeD wrote:

[quote]Gasman wrote:

The sad part is alot of people enjoy being sneaky and winning with an illegal car.

Let’s just hope those people don’t join SPEC E30[/quote]

I’ve tried to figure this one out for awhile. People that cheat, do what we all do in some situation or another (speaking off the track), the "justify it" to themselves in some way or another.

Talking to a racer from another series, I came away with this revelation…

The main justification for cheating in racing - "everybody’s doing it so I have to in order to keep up"

Of course, this isn’t true but it leads to a self-perpetuating cycle that I’ve seen in every series. Hopefully, not as prevalent in this series as much as others.

#31

erupert66 wrote:

[quote]MikeD wrote:

[quote]Gasman wrote:

The sad part is alot of people enjoy being sneaky and winning with an illegal car.

Let’s just hope those people don’t join SPEC E30[/quote]

I’ve tried to figure this one out for awhile. People that cheat, do what we all do in some situation or another (speaking off the track), the "justify it" to themselves in some way or another.

Talking to a racer from another series, I came away with this revelation…

The main justification for cheating in racing - "everybody’s doing it so I have to in order to keep up"

Of course, this isn’t true but it leads to a self-perpetuating cycle that I’ve seen in every series. Hopefully, not as prevalent in this series as much as others.[/quote]

Well, I sold a solid E36 M3 to join this series since the amount of cheating and whining in I Prepared was ridiculous. I certainly hope that we can keep this series about driving skill and not about cheating skill.

I still to this day do not understand people who break the rules in amateur racing. If you are that motivated to get your $5 trophy then just go buy one and tell people that you won. It’s all lying after all…

#32

thbrewst wrote:

[quote]

I still to this day do not understand people who break the rules in amateur racing. If you are that motivated to get your $5 trophy then just go buy one and tell people that you won. It’s all lying after all…[/quote]

That sums it up perfectly…what a great quote!

#33

We should have a club, the "I sold my nice [insert nice car here] to race Spec E30"

I know of at least 7 people off the top of my head who sold nice M cars to race SE30!

JP
Recovering M3 owner

#34

155MPH wrote:

[quote]We should have a club, the "I sold my nice [insert nice car here] to race Spec E30"

I know of at least 7 people off the top of my head who sold nice M cars to race SE30!

JP
Recovering M3 owner[/quote]

We sold a 240z Vintage Car to race spec E30. I do miss driving it, but this is awsome.

#35

Jones wrote:

[quote]thbrewst wrote:

[quote]

I still to this day do not understand people who break the rules in amateur racing. If you are that motivated to get your $5 trophy then just go buy one and tell people that you won. It’s all lying after all…[/quote]

That sums it up perfectly…what a great quote![/quote]

In Porsche Club, guys are cheating like mad and they don’t even give trophies (leads to accidents, yeah right :huh: )

#36

I’m leaving 944 Cup to race in Spec E30. I feel that the bulk of the rules are perfect, but (as with anything) a few a way over the top. Am I going to have to completely tear down my donor car to remove any "bling" that the previous owner may have installed. One possiblity to cure all problems is have Carter build our cars for us (just kidding Mr. Hunt). Cheaters are out there in every aspect of life. Racing is no different. Only one person can win the race, but everyone can still feel good that they did their best that day. Motivation should cause them to figure out why they finished as they did, and what they can do as a driver to improve their results the next time. Porsches come with atleast 4 different colored brake calipers. Alot of people paint theirs to mimic the higher end models, even going so far as to copy the paint scheme from a famous racer onto their own car, even though it is a different model. I doubt that a special coating on the outside of a caliper will dissipate near as much heat as a slotted or drilled rotor will, which is legal. The performance enhancement comes from the coating on the friction surface, not the exterior. Will painting the outside of my block with a ceramic coating help anything, NO. I’ve rambled long enough. Lets go race

#37

Yea, I also sold a 240z that I spent several years restoring to build a SE30 race car. Beautiful car, I sometimes miss it a lot but no regrets.

I also like the idea of allowing a tech inspection of top finishers rather than using swapped in parts during a race. Just seems easier. If we swap in a control shock on a mid- or back-pack driver then a high finishing cheat we haven’t accomplished the full objective. I’m also unclear how this part swapping will be administered regionally. Does each region have their own set of control parts and who is responsible for ensuring the swap? etc. etc.

#38

Patton wrote:

[quote]Carter, have you checked your rebuilt diff? At 22-36 ft-lbs it is my experience that you will DQ the entire field.

Used differentials that I have checked are in the 40-44 range.

Having said that, give us all a number and it will be conformed to.Same for front camber, please.What is the AFM bore size that you want to check for? We will purchase a ID caliper to check them (I’ll check mine to determine bore).

I’ll put Cullen to work, either gathering data or checking numbers at Robeling in May. May I suggest data collection first?

Regards, Robert

P.S. I checked a diff this weekend to show one how it can be done. I’m sure there was nothing going on with the diff. The number was 52 ft-lbc.[/quote]

Carter, CMP and Roebling Road are approaching. Your input on how to proceed, please.

Regards, Robert Patton

#39

Guys:

I’ve been away for a while because of business and family medical challenges. All is good now with work and family so let’s get back to the discussion.

  1. My reference to caliper paint wasn’t meant to suggest that someone is going to be sanctioned for that mod (obviously I should have written it differently), but that it is an example of how we should all just keep the cars simple and how they came from the factory, not including the allowed mods of course. Some guys have the yellow/clear headlight covers and no one is going to hear about that from a Spec E30 official. We’re tight but not that tight on non-performance enhancing mods.

  2. Checking diff lockup will happen. At this point, we’re gathering info (and hopefully discouraging cheating by telling the group that this will happen). I checked mine using Robert’s (and Korman’s) recommended procedure and my newly rebuilt diff broke at 54 lb.ft or above the Korman numbers…which I didn’t cite as the end-all diff torque Rule but just as another piece of information for the group. I told them to build mine to the stock setup and frankly, they said they would get it as close as possible but that it is impossible to hit a specific number…or to even get very close. It looks like anything below about 60 lb.ft. is where we should be. If someone has a 75% lockup, it will definitely be an advantage and since it takes about one minute to check…

  3. No one is going to tear down someone’s engine every weekend. Let’s put the melodrama aside. The chassis dyno testing that we have done, and will continue to do has worked well.

  4. Checking the AFM bore involves pulling off a hose clamp, pulling off the boot, and sticking a caliper in the bore. It might take 5 minutes.

  5. Pulling Jon Allen’s left rear shock at VIR took about 8 minutes.

  6. One inspection at the beginning of the season and one at the end is silly. Any good cheater can get around that one with no trouble at all, especially when he knows when it’s going to happen.

As we move ahead, we will continue to check (especially performance enhancing) items that are easy to see and easy to gauge. And we will make every effort to gather information before making any hard ruling.

Some weekends will have several technical checks and some might have none at all. Keeping everyone guessing is part of the plan. But again, the checks are easy and pain-free…for legal cars. I can go to the track and relax, knowing that my car is legal. And so can any other legal car owner.

And as always, my car is available to anyone and at anytime for any inspection, and will be included when other cars are inspected.

Carter

#40

Thanks for the information on your differential. You know the long story and I can concur that my diff is at 54/56 using the goober-in-the-field method of checking. Again, I checked another car for fun at Rockingham and it had a 52. I’ve seen 200k-plus units in the 44/48 range. Based on your lead this weekend David and I can gather info at Roebling.

Camber checks?

Visual checks on ECUs ?

With the business and medical problems, I’m hopeful for you that the CMP race will be a welcome relief from the day-to-day.

Regards, Robert

Oops, just read Carter’s other post and he will not be at CMP. Carter, we can gather info as you see necessary.Robert