So where are we with the spec exhaust issue?


#61

Stephen Foushee wrote:

Who 's being ridiculous? :dry:

Steve, If you would read what people are really saying here? You would see that the money is not the issue. It’s the fact that there is a rule change that will effect 70-80% of the cars out there. And it’s a change that was up for discusion for some time. And the peoples voice was not heard. It was ignored.

Most of us like to do the work on our cars ourselves. And changing out the exhuast is not one of the things we can really do.

Do we like spending the money? NO!

We are being forced to spend money on something that hasn’t proven to be a factor in the close racing we’ve had all year long. It’s change for change sake.

It’s change to avoid having to make a decision to tear down cars to find where the real advantages are being had.

It’s ridiculous that you would think all these guys, who you share the track with, who you know, would be in such an up roar over $200.

Come on?!! :huh:


#62

Scott, you nailed this issue. It’s not the money, it’s the principle. The vast majority of us don’t believe that at root, there is any merit to this change, and it is just change for change’s sake, and we don’t like being completely ignored. Steve F, you are absolutely missing the point.

Funny how things are different now that there are dozens of SE30 racers active.

Wasn’t that long ago that a noob would ask a question and we’d all pile on and say "SE30 is a dictatorship and it’s better that way", or "just drink some SE30 Koolaid and you’ll see" and similar. It was (and is) a dictatorship. I used to think it was a benevolent dictatorship.

However, even a dictator is a leader, and if the people won’t follow, you have problems. It seems that our leaders have gotten so used to being blindly followed that they haven’t noticed we are a critical mass, we have opinions, and we deserve to have our point of view considered.

We don’t seem to take well to hearing the dictator say "this is how it’s going to be" and not offer a well-formed argument as to why it is needed.

They could have presented this with a 1 year grace period or a grandfather clause, so that those of us who just bought exhausts wouldn’t be grumbling about throwing them away so quickly. They could have offered some reasonably scientific dyno results to show the relative differences. They could have talked about the "unofficial survey" of competitor cars, and told us what we already know, which is that the vast majority are running dual glasspacks, not singles. But they didn’t.

At the end of the day, one or two guys making decisions is still the only way to avoid chaos (lord help us if we ever form a rules committee) but you can’t take on that role without looking around to see if the serfs are lined up behind you.

This band of serfs seems disinclined to do that, at least on this issue.


#63

Scott my friend, I can see this is going to get worse before it gets better. My comments were not intended to offend anyone. Obviously they have and for that I am truly sorry.

Here is my point and I will try not to offend anyone as I attempt to make it again. Spec e30 is not a democracy. If we could go back in time, I think most of us agree that it would have been wise to start this series with a spec exhaust. It is unfortunate for most of us that the spec exhaust is going to be something different than we currently have on our cars. Years from now the spec e30 group with probably be twice the size it is now. There may be a day when we have to qualify for a position and only the top 35-40 cars are allowed to race. Preparing for the size of the group, it is in the best interest of our sport to address the exhaust system rule now verses later.

In closing, consider how happy the Nascar shops were to find out the “car of tomorrow” would make every car in their shop obsolete?


#64

I think my point is we have a spec exhaust (defacto). The other 4 threads on this topic I have yet to see anyone that has the new ‘spec’ setup.

To Chuck’s post why change this? If there are people out there that have this they are either a very silent majority (don’t think so) or they should be the one’s to change to the more common setup.

I would think that any variability between the different types of two tubes two glass packs could be accounted for by the max hp / dyno ruling.


#65

Stephen Foushee wrote:

[quote]Scott my friend, I can see this is going to get worse before it gets better. My comments were not intended to offend anyone. Obviously they have and for that I am truly sorry.

[/quote]

It’s cool. B) no offence taken. I’m just pointing out it’s not about the money. It’s much bigger than that.

Spec e30 is and never will be a democracy. But there needs to be more thought and consideration put into the rules, when they are made active, how much time to conform, and how they effect the group of drivers who are currently in the series.


#66

Scott McMennamy wrote:

I’m just pointing out it’s not about the money. It’s much bigger than that.
[/quote]

I don’t disagree, but notice my comments were directed to those complaining about the $. :wink:


#67

Stephen Foushee wrote:

[quote]Scott McMennamy wrote:

I’m just pointing out it’s not about the money. It’s much bigger than that.
[/quote]

I don’t disagree, but notice my comments were directed to those complaining about the $. ;)[/quote]

Stop commenting on those who are complaining about the $$$. Just because we love racing and can afford the hobby does not mean we want to unnecessarily spend money. The fact is that changing the exhausts will cost money and time (which is money). For many of us it will involve trailering our cars to a local muffler shop that can do the work. Well, first we have to find such a shop, which is not an easy task for some of us that live in metropolitan areas where smog rules are very strict. All of this is a royal pain in the ass for a change to our cars that does not seem to make sense in light of the new "your motor cannot max out above a certain hp/tq level even though you built it legally" rule.

If you have some thing of value to add to the discussion, please do, otherwise follow what you moms taught many years ago about if you have nothing nice to say then…


#68

I think everyone on here really needs to relax. This really isn’t that big of an issue. Seriously. It’s an exhaust system.


#69

-duplicate so deleted -


#70

Jim Robinson wrote:

[quote]
I would think that any variability between the different types of two tubes two glass packs could be accounted for by the max hp / dyno ruling.[/quote]

Jim,
if I understand your comments (quoted) correctly you are saying that difference between exhaust build according to the old rules vs. new exhaust can account for, sometimes significant, difference in HP/torque between cars. IMO there is no way that exhaust, built according to the old rules can account for, or be major contributor, to HP difference. IMO, difference would be around 2-3 HP. I don’t have dyno numbers to prove it, so it might be mute argument, but if one looks into exhaust theory I think they would agree with me.
IIRC, how all this started, if you dyno two cars and get big difference in HP/torque numbers, and only thing different you can see is exhaust, it is wrong to conclude that exhaust is only or major culprit. (no, I ma not calling guys with high hp numbers cheaters by default). It can be many things internal to engine and drive train that we can’t see that are major contributors to those numbers.
For our cars, well engines, modifications allowed by old exhaust rules simply can not account for major part of hp/torque difference between cars - physics just doesn’t compute.
In previous posts I stated my thoughts and opinions on exhaust rule change, and all of this above might not matter as I am not in charge of rules, and frankly I wish we just move on - one way or the other (do people here still remember ’ atmosphere ’ while we were on Yahoo Groups?).

Regards,
Igor


#71

Jon, Even though spec e30 isnt’ a democracy, freedom of speech is a right that we all have yet to lose.


#72

Spec E30: Greg, How’s the build coming?

Greg: Pretty good I just need a couple more things here and there

Spec E30: Good news but there is a new rule stating you have to eat this crap sandwich.

Greg: I would really rather not!!!

Spec E30: Tough you will eat it and enjoy every last bite.

Spec E30: How was it?

Greg: Oh, It was craptacular!!


#73

Igor K wrote:

[quote]Jim Robinson wrote:

[quote]
I would think that any variability between the different types of two tubes two glass packs could be accounted for by the max hp / dyno ruling.[/quote]

Jim,
if I undesrtand your comments (quoted) correctly you are saying that difference between exhaust build according to the old rules vs. new exhaust can account for, sometimes significat, difference in HP[b]IMO[b] there is no way that[/quote]

Igor - I’m not sure, since I haven’t seen any numbers that apparently kicked off this discussion. I’m just guessing that the difference between two tubes of 3in vs. 2.5in or whatever the range of the 2 tube / 2 glasspack exhaust that is predominantly out there can’t be much.

I don’t argue that a spec exhaust isn’t needed or a good idea, I just don’t understand why it would necessarily be something that most racers don’t have. In the SE I’m not aware of a single active racer that doesn’t have what I’ll call the 2/2 setup. Looking briefly at Carter’s car I think that is even what he has.

If the spec exhaust is desired why not make the minority fix their setups?


#74

This tread and the arguements within are a good example of what happens when we have to get our racing fix from message boards. Everyone needs to be polite just like they would if talking person to person and we will survive the long winter until racing season starts again in 2008.


#75

I would just like to add a few of my comments here on this subject.

Where did this figure of $200 come from? I know for sure if my exhaust guy wasn’t a friend of mine I would have to pay $300+

I agree with having a spec exhaust, but find it more logical to convert to what the majority has…

Is the whole spec e30 philosophy changing here? For example some of the rules questions/comments in the past have been answered by "rules stability." Some of these include the basketweave wheel issue and the update backdate of bumpers…

Is this verdict going to be finalized soon, I need to do my exhaust by the 3rd and 4th of December. I would really rather not have to do it more than once…


#76

it’s about the principal AND the money with me, my exhaust was done last spring (2 pipes, 2 glasspacks), i went with the popular setup, the same setup i saw at the track on many competitors vehicles. i’ll try to keep the emotion out of this but i can’t let this comment slide, someone on this board said something to the effect that they did not want run with someone who’s budget would be affected by having to spend $100-$200 to change their exh, my reply is that you have a choice, if you see my name on the entry don’t show up, personally i hope you do, i have no prejudice against you because you have more money or a better job than me. i was out of work for 13 months so i am trying to recover form that, but the important thing to remember is that the size of my wallet doesn’t make me any less of a racer. i have 24 years time trial(including time in an scca world challenge corvette) and autocross experience and safety is first in my mind. my car is well prepped and when i hit the track i will be smooth, fast and safe.
sorry for the length of this, just my 8 cents (adjusted for inflation and fuel costs).
don, car #22 (on hold til this is settled).


#77

Don, Thank you for posting that. Please forgive me for what I said earlier, I was wrong to say it and I apolgize for it. I’d be happy to share a track with you.


#78

apology accepted dude! sorry to sound so emotional, we’ll hoist a cold one together sometime soon!:wink: