So where are we with the spec exhaust issue?

#21

:blink: OK tongue biting is over…

Specing the exhaust? Come on really? Why not spec color (I suggest black)?

This 2 pipes to a Y into 1 is NOT a common setup, from what I’ve seen of the cars in the paddock of the Mid Atlantic and Southeast races I’ve been to. When there was an announcement that the exhaust was going to be looked at, there was a fair amount of discussion. To this Carter responded that the final decision would be based on what is being commonly used by racer. ? ? :dry: ? ?

And outside of the fact that HP gains from the exhaust are so minimal, why is there a need to spec an exhaust when there some many other factors that are adding to greater HP gains. And if the Spec E30 philosophy doesn’t necessarily dictate that we spec the "best" [parts]. I know this [may be] tough for some to contemplate but we are not really concerned about how fast the cars go down the track. [the] primary objectives are low costs, reliability, and close racing. Why not focus on some of the areas where folks are finding a real advantage.

Don’t get me wrong… I’m not saying there are cheaters out there. But unless we willing to go to a sealed motor, which non of us a willing of wanting to do, there are going to be a wide range of numbers being produced. Look at the Dyno sheets from the top 3 finishers at Nationals. Their numbers ranged, yet their numbers were lower than some of the guys who finished well behind them.

I know I have a stronger motor than a lot of cars that finish ahead of me. It not their car that beats me. It’s the driver… and me that causes my poor finishes.

Competition is good. The racing is currently driver against driver, and that what we want it to be.

Like Damion said, If it ain’t broke, please don’t try and fix it.

But my fear is our cry are going to continue to go unheard. When the final rules for 2008 are posted, it may be a good idea to include a protest form because there are going to a few racers who will need a lot of those forms.

[color=#A7A7A7][size=2]Carter, I know you work hard to make this series as great as it is. And it is a tough job to try to make everyone happy. I mean no disrespect by my comments. I too want to see this series grow without turning into something non of us want to my a part of.[/size][/color]

#22

I cannot say with any certainty, I can only make an assumption that existing cars will be okay. Moving forward/new cars should use the spec exhaust…therefore everyone is happy.

If that assumption is not correct,well it will be discussed tis weekend at Barber.

Regards, Robert Patton

#23

I doubt that spending $100 to have your exhaust system modified to meet the new "proposed" rules is going to break anyone. We spend that much in gas getting just to most races. For me it is more of the hassle of having to change something that doesn’t give anyone a competitive advantage to start with (assuming you are not running the stock setup).

Also, as others have already said, if there is going to be a max HP rule imposed then why even bother with the exhaust spec?

#24

Robert Patton wrote:

[quote]I cannot say with any certainty, I can only make an assumption that existing cars will be okay. Moving forward/new cars should use the spec exhaust…therefore everyone is happy.

If that assumption is not correct,well it will be discussed tis weekend at Barber.

Regards, Robert Patton[/quote]

Robert, are you kidding me? You think it’s going to be ok for the older, better experienced guys to run a "unrestricted" exhaust system but the new rookies will be "handicapped" by having to run a system that everyone here seems to think will make them slower?:frowning:

I was excited that some of you front runners may get upset enough that you drop out of Spec E30 and head to Spec Miater (Damion???) and make room for some new blood!:woohoo:

Just kidding Damion, we like you too much to let you go to the "Dark side"!

#25

Scott McMennamy wrote:

Shelby’s gonna file a protest the next time you sleep on a fireant mound…

#26

Robert Patton wrote:

[quote]I cannot say with any certainty, I can only make an assumption that existing cars will be okay. Moving forward/new cars should use the spec exhaust…therefore everyone is happy.

If that assumption is not correct,well it will be discussed tis weekend at Barber.

Regards, Robert Patton[/quote]

If growth is what we want, I can’t imagine a better way to stop it dead in its tracks.

edit: Carter, as I posted earlier this week, the updated rules section of this website and your post regarding the new rule appear to be in contradiction. Would you please address this?

#27

This new exhaust is what some knowlendgable E30/M20 guys have suggested I use for max HP/TQ. It may be the hot ticket and what is needed to get close to the HP/TQ that will be speced.

I do have a question about what Carter said where we cut the down pipes. Do we still keep the crossover?

Michael - With non spec exhaust

#28

Michael Osborne wrote:

[quote]This new exhaust is what some knowlendgable E30/M20 guys have suggested I use for max HP/TQ. It may be the hot ticket and what is needed to get close to the HP/TQ that will be speced.

I do have a question about what Carter said where we cut the down pipes. Do we still keep the crossover?

Michael - With non spec exhaust[/quote]

I don’t think an x-pipe is needed when you are converging two pipes into one.

#29

I think I am going to keep waiting to see where all this dust settles.

#30

David Nalley wrote:

If it goes the way Carter says, it’s going to be the recycle bin for a whole lot of exhaust systems.

I for one am not interested in re-doing the exhaust. This will be my fourth time through (granted not from rule changes). What happened to rules stability though?

#31

Meh. I’m not changing my exhaust again.

You guys can protest me next year if you want.

ps. If you do protest me, I will drink all your beer.

#32

I’m also worried about rules stability. I’ve been here from the start, and I remember changing my exhaust to a 2-pipe setup, because that’s what the rules mandated. This new change is 180 degrees out, and I have seen ZERO justification. For a car that’s been around from the start, this would make TWO mandated exhaust changes per the rules. Shall we just keep the old exhaust around for 2009?!?! What about 2010?

As far as spec’ing the HP numbers by what the dynos say - I’m VERY dissapointed in this idea. That’s like trying to measure your speed by counting the number of bugs that hit your windshield.

All Dynos meaure differently, and change radically with temperature and humidity. They’re great for comparing cars back-to-back, but the numbers themselves are worthless, especially over time and over different dynos. The statement that even if a car is torn down and found to be legal, yet will be DQ’d because it didn’t meet the numbers on an arbitrary dyno graph is insane!

I understand the desire to make the series appealing to all, but you may very well end up screwing someone who actually gives a damn about winning the whole fricking thing. Are you trying to attract competitors or mid-life crisis tourists seeking their "racing" merit badge?

If there was a technical basis or a technical justification for the changes, then I would not be worried. Annoyed perhaps, but not worried. I have read ZERO justification on these boards. Who’s the contact for Spec Miata?

#33

Exhaust update: the new rule was discussed at Barber this past weekend. For those in the "if it ain’t broke don’t fix it" camp, your point was
aggressively presented. Further piling-on is unnessary. Let’s see how this one plays out.

My experience with rules in other series …well, let’s not go there. If a rule is unenforceable or if a rule is not enforced, take your pick, it takes away form the series and causes decention among the ranks.

I’ll trust that the situation will be resolved to the betterment of the series.As it has been presented, I’ll be racing regardless.

Regards, Robert Patton

#34

Quoting from Vic Hall:

As far as spec’ing the HP numbers by what the dynos say - I’m VERY dissapointed in this idea. That’s like trying to measure your speed by counting the number of bugs that hit your windshield.

All Dynos meaure differently, and change radically with temperature and humidity. They’re great for comparing cars back-to-back, but the numbers themselves are worthless, especially over time and over different dynos. The statement that even if a car is torn down and found to be legal, yet will be DQ’d because it didn’t meet the numbers on an arbitrary dyno graph is insane!

I understand the desire to make the series appealing to all, but you may very well end up screwing someone who actually gives a damn about winning the whole fricking thing. Are you trying to attract competitors or mid-life crisis tourists seeking their "racing" merit badge?

If there was a technical basis or a technical justification for the changes, then I would not be worried. Annoyed perhaps, but not worried. I have read ZERO justification on these boards. Who’s the contact for Spec Miata?

End of quote.

As a mid-life crisis dude seeking my merit badge:) …(I couldn’t resist using Vic’s quote.)

The horsepower/torque subject is a new post for a different day when we all have somethong to look at and discuss.The concept sounds doable.I’m certain further conversation will follow in a different thread.

Regards, Robert (mid-life man) Patton

#35

I’ll present a few comments here and then the "official" discussion will be over. As always, this is an open forum and anyone is welcome to discuss anything (including exhausts) here but this is it from Spec E30 officials.

  1. "Why do we need a spec exhaust if the dyno numbers are set?" Answer - Very few cars are actually dyno’d at the track. Yes, we’ll have maximum allowed dyno numbers but the cars need to be closer in hp and torque and a spec exhaust will help our drivers know that one car doesn’t have this specific advantage, when a dyno isn’t present, which is most of the time. Several drivers have told me that they are getting a bit discouraged because some cars are posting big numbers and they feel like they are being outspent. They don’t mind getting beat by a better driver but getting beat by a stronger car is not what Spec E30 is about. Also, having engine components that are more alike will help keep the cars closer.

  2. "I just spent $400.00 on my exhaust and I don’t want to change it." Answer - Spending $400.00 on the exhaust is exactly what we do not want in Spec E30. The only reason someone would spend that much on an exhaust system is to gain an advantage. Plus, everyone building a new car will only spend about $100.00 to $150.00 on their exhaust.

  3. "I’m (we’re) not changing my (our) exhaust even though the rule requires a spec exhaust." Answer - You have got to be kidding. Anyone who says this is acting like a child. Any car not in compliance regarding a significant drivetrain part will be DQ’d. If spending $150.00 and an hour of your time for the swap is enough to risk getting DQ’d (when you spend $800.00 per weekend), you have a serious priority problem.

  4. "Who is the Spec Miata Contact?" Answer - Google Spec Miata and I’m sure you can find it…and don’t let the Spec E30 door hit you in the butt on your way out. Virtually every Spec Miata driver I have spoken with wishes their rules were more restrictive. Other Spec series are tightening their rules. We may lose a few drivers but we’ll gain many more who like the idea of cheaper and simpler parts that are more alike.

  5. Spec E30 has never been, and will not ever be a series for "tinkerers/engineers/guys that can spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars on the dyno testing ten different exhaust systems. If nothing is done now, this will happen. Many of you are only thinking about yourselves and are only thinking about right now. A Spec exhaust is like a spec tire. Many drivers didn’t like the idea of a spec tire when we started Spec E30 but over the long run, it’s been a good thing. This will be the same.

  6. We are building the final version this week at a local exhaust shop and he (I’ll have absolutely nothing to do with the money part) will offer the system to the general public. We will also have the details on the final bends, lengths, and diameters so anyone can go to his/her local shop for the same simple system.

Carter

#36

Good job Carter! Let us know when your Spec Exhaust is done and where your man is so we can get two for our cars.

It takes balls to step up some times and it will be good for the group as a whole. Besides, I knew I had to change mine anyway, so no big deal to me!

Jeff

#37

Carter, I’m in favor of a spec exhaust. There will definitely be some intial grumplings but I think its a good idea in the long run. I do think that it does need to be readily available from some source and be able to handle the initial rush to get one before next year.

#38

Put me down for number 3.

And if I’m acting like a child the rules committe is not listening to the racers.

Trying to leave the emotion out of this post, I’ll request that you present some data to back up point 5 about the dyno advantages of the tinkerer.

Straight pipes dual:137.2hp 141.0tq
Dual with baffles out (loud):138.8hp 143.8tq
Dual with baffles in (quieter):139.9hp 144.9tq

Straight pipes aren’t the answer? Or, did the car get warmed up between runs 1 and 3?

Were I searching and tinkering I’d flip the glasspacks to the "in" setting on my two cars that were already welded-up.Come check them out (play on words) 'cause they’re welded out.

Speaking for 70-80%of the existing racers,thanks in advance for your due consideration.

This batch of kool-aid doesn’t taste right,

Regards, Robert Patton

#39

Carter,
I admire what you are doing and will finish my next two(2) cars with the "spec exhaust".

But I am also stuck on #3 - if an existing car has an existing exhaust system then why should they have to remove it? There are many more ways for drivers to get power out of their cars - I would think that exhaust is the least of the issues.

At the Nationals in SpecMiata they didn’t even check the exhaust - the top three(3) cars complete engines were torn down to check for illegal parts. When I heard that there are E30 cars out there that have more HP at the rear wheels than the engine supposedly made at the flywheel from the factory then I get suspicious :wink: Having owned a dyno (and I am planning to buy another portable one for 2008) I doubt that their exhaust was the difference.

Even though this is a Spec series, I would prefer to see a HP:WT and TQ:WT ratio tossed in, that way if someone is creative with their exhaust or manage to get gobs of power out of a "stock" engine then they must add weight to level the playing field. It has worked well in many of the other series so it should work well in SpecE30 as well…

FYI - this post is as a racer in SpecE30 and not as a NASA RD, I will abide by Carter’s rules if he does proceed with them but I wanted to post my opinion as a participant.

ps. I want to know where you go for exhaust work as my local shop ALWAYS charges about $300 for any work, even when I brought them a complete pre-bent system for my truck they charged me $300 for installation!

#40

I have discovered that these cars really like a decent amount of back pressure. I think both of our exhaust systems lack enough back pressure to generate good mid-range hp and tq. So I like this idea and I like the fact that everyone will have the same exhaust. I would really like to see the top 10 drivers on any given qualifying session to be with .5sec of each other.
my 2 cents.