Rules

[Carter]

A few items that will be checked at the track, and a few items that may be modified in the rules.

It looks like we’ll go with a 6% rule on dyno checks. If a car is more than 6% above the mean dyno number (on HP or torque) of the other cars, it will be more thoroughly checked and possibly DQ’d.

We’ll possibly require retail unleaded pump gas - which is what everyone is using anyway.

Go to a spec exhaust, sometime, to remove that variable that is an issue with our cars. The exhaust, good and bad, has been the biggest variable. We have dyno’d many, many cars and there’s no doubt about it.

9.3.4.1 Any part of the exhaust system beginning with and including, the catalytic converter may be replaced, unless a replacement system is specified in these regulations, provided:

Remaking an exhaust (I would have to do it myself) isn’t expensive. My complete setup was about $175.00 installed, and a simple and consistent exhaust is a good thing for everyone, long-term. Without it, drivers will spend money on the dyno to gain power by trying different systems. And most of us will probably only have to make a few changes. I probably won’t spend more than $100.00 and that’s a small price to pay, to know that the most significant variable has been removed.

We’ll have a few spare ECU’s at the track and we will draw names and make the swap during the weekend. Some will have to dyno with their ECU and then with one of ours.

We’ll check cam lift.

We’ll check the airflow meter size. I’m having a "plug" machined to the stock size and will use it to check cars. It will get shipped to other regions for their use too.

We’re still researching ways to check diff lockup.

Does anyone have, or plan to use, a locked diff? If not, we might remove that from the Rules.

9.3.13.15. Interior mirror(s) may be replaced with multi-panel type mirror, so long as they do not extend beyond the confines of the interior of the vehicle.

Do many of you have single panel convex interior mirrors? I do. We might reword this one.

While this is not the typical "what do you vote for?" presentation of ideas to the drivers, we do value logical opinions, and pretty much ignore whining and crying that is so widespread in other series. If you have a logical point (not including bumpers and wheels - those horses are dead) and want to bring up an issue, please do.

But in the end, Mike and I will make the decisions based on what is good for Spec E30.

From what I have listed here, no legal driver has anything to worry about and as always, we will only make a few changes that are good for the drivers and for Spec E30.

And regarding compliance, these measures are designed to discourage cheating, not to catch drivers once they have started cheating…although we probably will catch someone who is cheating. And cars will be checked from the front of the grid to the back. As long as the cars stay close in performance, the racing will continue to be entertaining and fun.

We have built a great series here at Spec E30 and we are extremely happy to see all the new cars and drivers join us, all over the United States. As in the past, I’m sure we will continue to be the talk of the paddock and we will continue to see more and more drivers of other classes work their way to the spectator areas when the Spec E30 cars are on the track.

Carter

[Igor]

I like the ideas and here are my thought:

Carter wrote:

[quote]
It looks like we’ll go with a 6% rule on dyno checks. If a car is more than 6% above the mean dyno number (on HP or torque) of the other cars, it will be more thoroughly checked and possibly DQ’d. [/quote]

I like the idea behind this but wandering if there is a better way to define this. In a odd ball chance that in a small field there are all but one car with "tired" motors and one with fresh, and legal, rebuild, what is possibility (probability) that "newer" motor will be 6% stronger then the rest? Think of smallest possible set - two cars. Chances in that case are greatest that 6% diff can show up (although both cars are legal). With bigger field of cars, those chances are reduced…It would be unfair that the car gets DQ-ed even though it’s legal. I do acknowledge that you say "possibly DQ-ed", hence left to the tech inspectors/judge’s discretion.

I haven’t thought about this a lot, but one idea that comes to mind is to place only upper limit on HP and torque values. For example: any car above 172 HP will be taken closer look at or DQ-ed 9I am not proposing 172 HP as a limit - just using it as an example) That way it’s consistent at all races for all cars in all regions (basically you take dependency on other cars out). Upper limit can be based on published data from BMW. Note that I said "based on" since i don’t know how they performed tests. For upper limit cutoff I think that we should add up all (relevent ) variables and their variations errors - i.e. power of freshly rebuilt motor with +1 size pistons (IIRC allowed by rules), perfect atmospheric conditions, etc.[ there is some figuring out to be done here ]
One disadvantage that I see with what I proposed (that is actually an advantage in your proposal) is dyno itself. I really don’t know what are the differences between same mfg/model dynos but they can influence the measurement. I know that different dynos from different mfg.'s can show widely different results though. So if we develop numbers with specific dyno and use that same model in all regions for tests we should be OK. If we use different model or different mfg dynos for there might be a problem.
In essence what you proposed is relative measurement, and what I have "thrown in the beg" is absolute measurement - both have pros and cons…

[quote]
We’ll possibly require retail unleaded pump gas - which is what everyone is using anyway.[/quote]
I am not sure how easy is to enforce this. Are you planning on checking gas siphoned from every car’s tank? Although it’s easy to spot someone at the pump on the track filling up with racing gas (higher octane), it’s not so easy if they just slip bottle of additive. Again, I really don’t know how easy is to check this (and who will carry and calibrate equipment, etc.), so it might be a mute point. I just don’t want us to have rules that are not enforceable. From my prospective I am planning on using pump gas…

[quote]
Go to a spec exhaust, sometime, to remove that variable that is an issue with our cars. The exhaust, good and bad, has been the biggest variable. We have dyno’d many, many cars and there’s no doubt about it.

9.3.4.1 Any part of the exhaust system beginning with and including, the catalytic converter may be replaced, unless a replacement system is specified in these regulations, provided: [/quote]

Are you sure the exhaust is the biggest variable? Not trying to be sarcastic, just curious. Unless various exhaust configurations have been tested under same conditions on one (same) car, from scientific point of view, data which is attributed to exhaust differences might be meaningless (ie not trusted because there are other variables at play not just exhaust configuration).
As rules are written right now, someone can spend a lot of money to gain 3-4 HP at best by messing with (developing) the "free" part of exhaust. In my opinion this is just not worthed as bang for the buck is very minimal. If someone really wants to do this to SpecE30 car I say let them, but I’ll spend my money elsewhere.

Another impact to changing this rules to "spec exhaust" might be to guys who will drive to events (which will most likely be me at the very beginning). As rules are written right now I can keep stock exhaust drive on the street and on the track. I also have an option of replacing tail end of the exhaust once I am on the track (two flanges and 4 bolts). My concern with possible rule change is to flexibility of doing this

[quote]
We’ll have a few spare ECU’s at the track and we will draw names and make the swap during the weekend. Some will have to dyno with their ECU and then with one of ours.[/quote]

Are you proposing that we swap ECUs for the race or just for the dyno test. If former, I would think that we would need a rule to clarify what happens if I crash and destroy your ECU, i.e how would you get compensated. Also, there is always an odd chance that electrical gremlins can short and destroy your ECU, in my car, on the track or just during dyno test run, so same compensation/handling of the situations concerns apply. I am not against this proposed rule at all, but just think that we should think how to handle some scenarios…

[quote]
We’ll check cam lift.
[/quote] No real issues here (actually what happens if who ever is testing this unintentionally drops something down my engine’s oil passages?)

Does anyone have, or plan to use, a locked diff? If not, we might remove that from the Rules.

No plans for locked diff

[quote]
9.3.13.15. Interior mirror(s) may be replaced with multi-panel type mirror, so long as they do not extend beyond the confines of the interior of the vehicle.

Do many of you have single panel convex interior mirrors? I do. We might reword this one.[/quote]
wink type of mirror should still be legal right?

[quote]
If you have a logical point (not including bumpers and wheels - those horses are dead) and want to bring up an issue, please do.[/quote]

I got two that I think are logical ( )

1.RTABs (rear Trailing Arm Bushings) - I brought this up before here. My take is that f we can run adj. RTABs let’s do it right, otherwise let’s specify no offset/no adj RTAB allowed.

2. rear swaybar - it’s been brought up few times ( even during times when we were on Yahoo groups) so I will not detail it now. This is actually the area that i think people might spend a lot of money as series grows, and hence creating bigger discrepancy between performance of the cars (as opposed to developing end of exhaust pipes). I understand that choices are not easy as it would require spec bar, or be it "free" and then people might "thinker" with setting on the track. My vote here would for it to be free - there isn’t much that we can thinker on these cars (which is good!) but also part of good racer is to know and understand the car, so if someone wants to use their knowledge to fine tune the car let it be

Carter[/quote]

man this is a long post, but hey you asked

[ddavidv]

Carter,
Can you give me an idea of what you’d specify for exhaust since I’m on the cusp of doing mine? Seems the majority are running a cherry bomb, but I’ve seen single and dual pipes to the rear of the car. I was planning a single, since it is easier to make and costs less.
With LSD diff’s available, I don’t see why anyone would run a locked diff.
No problem with any of the other tweaks mentioned, and applaud the proactive policing before problems arise.

[155MPH]

Carter wrote:

[quote]If you have a logical point (not including bumpers and wheels - those horses are dead) and want to bring up an issue, please do.
[/quote]

Kicks dirt and mumbles under breath

How about the new part #'s on the rear H&R Race springs?

I agree with the post above. Is there any insight as to what the spec exhaust configuration will be?

JP

[jschmid]

+1 on specifying the exhaust ASAP. I was planning to have one fab’ed up in about 2 or 3 weeks. I’ve spent a fair bit of time reading through the archives here and based on that I would agree that the exhaust configuration seems to be the biggest factor in dyno results. I was planning to do something similar to the configuration that seemed to produce the best results, but I’d be happy to just follow a spec configuration. In fact, knowing what the spec exhaust config will be would make my life easier since I don’t have to worry about trying to pick the best muffler, pipe size, etc.

Carter, any guidance in this area soon would be great, but if you won’t be able to give any info could you give us a sense for the timing of when you might be able to? Just trying to plan when to have this work done. If it’s going to be a long time before the exhaust specs come out I may go ahead and do something now since the cost of changing later will not be that big a deal.

Thanks!
-Joe

P.S. If it makes it easier for people to transition, maybe we could specify the exhaust config now but start to enforce compliance later, e.g. Jan 1, 2008, etc.

[BETO]

Interesting comments on the exhaust system. Then we laugh at "ricers" when they have "coffee cans" exhausts without realizing how much power they gained just by letting the engine breath better. (joke)
"Cherry bomb"? Not familiar with that. Explain please.
yeah, I’d like to know/see what Carter/everybody else is using for exhaust. I have a few ideas than run from $100 to $300.
Leave the sway bars alone. This series was created with the driver in mind, not the engineers/mechanics.
Fuel. The max octane allowed should be of the racing fuel (100??).
ECU’s. If you exchange ECU’s and you burn/destroy the one you got, then you need to replace it, very simple.
Dyno test. maybe,but need to specify brand, temp, humidity, altitude, and other variables.
What is the BMW HP spec for our cars (170 european, 168 american??), that should be the top HP allowed. If you car go to +180hp (6% proposed by Carter), then take a "good" look at that car/engine. also remember that cai, exhaust and high octane fuel can add around 10hp to stock engine (according to some "butt" dyno tests). But if 9 out of ten cars are 160, and then the "one" is 170 (6% again), then there souldn’t be a problem. The other 9 cars need to "refresh" their engines.
This is my first year, so I haven’t learned the "tricks" yet, so something might come up later.
Is anybody renting cars in socal? I want to take a couple of friends to the Cali Speedway event.

[BETO]

Interesting comments on the exhaust system. Then we laugh at "ricers" when they have "coffee cans" exhausts without realizing how much power they gained just by letting the engine breath better. (joke)
"Cherry bomb"? Not familiar with that. Explain please.
yeah, I’d like to know/see what Carter/everybody else is using for exhaust. I have a few ideas than run from $100 to $300.
Leave the sway bars alone. This series was created with the driver in mind, not the engineers/mechanics.
Fuel. The max octane allowed should be of the racing fuel (100??).
ECU’s. If you exchange ECU’s and you burn/destroy the one you got, then you need to replace it, very simple.
Dyno test. maybe,but need to specify brand, temp, humidity, altitude, and other variables.
What is the BMW HP spec for our cars (170 european, 168 american??), that should be the top HP allowed. If you car go to +180hp (6% proposed by Carter), then take a "good" look at that car/engine. also remember that cai, exhaust and high octane fuel can add around 10hp to stock engine (according to some "butt" dyno tests). But if 9 out of ten cars are 160, and then the "one" is 170 (6% again), then there souldn’t be a problem. The other 9 cars need to "refresh" their engines.
This is my first year, so I haven’t learned the "tricks" yet, so something might come up later.
Is anybody renting cars in socal? I want to take a couple of friends to the Cali Speedway event.

[BETO]

I forgot.
LSD oem only.
Any mirror you like, I have wink and convex, and outside the little convex corners. I want to see everybody behind, and nobody in front of me, he!!
+1 on the spec exhaust, I need to work on that in a couple of weeks as well. Summit Racing has some nice options worth look into it.

[leggwork]

Igor wrote:

2. rear swaybar - it’s been brought up few times ( even during times when we were on Yahoo groups) so I will not detail it now. This is actually the area that i think people might spend a lot of money as series grows, and hence creating bigger discrepancy between performance of the cars (as opposed to developing end of exhaust pipes). I understand that choices are not easy as it would require spec bar, or be it "free" and then people might "thinker" with setting on the track. My vote here would for it to be free - there isn’t much that we can thinker on these cars (which is good!) but also part of good racer is to know and understand the car, so if someone wants to use their knowledge to fine tune the car let it be

Not sure if I am misreading your suggestion here Igor - but we already have a spec rear bar, or are you commenting on the adjustabililty of it?

I agree with above posters that we need the exhaust spec’d asap with a future applicability date, and we need to remember that some of these cars are driven to the track.

Another suggestion - all of the clarification requests should be reviewed for the last year to see if any need to be added to the rules - if somebody thought to ask for a clarification, that means others might ass-u-me the wrong way.

I’d like to see "available from any manufacturer" to be clarified to mean that the part is available for sale to any competitor, not that you can make one yourself and call yourself a manufacturer.

thanks,
bruce

[leggwork]

http://www.cherrybomb.com/glasspacks-front.html
one example of a cherry bomb - they can be bought at Checker, etc. for about $25

also, just fyi, BMW specifies 168hp as engine hp, not rwhp.
cheers,
bruce

BETO wrote:

[quote]Interesting comments on the exhaust system. Then we laugh at "ricers" when they have "coffee cans" exhausts without realizing how much power they gained just by letting the engine breath better. (joke)
"Cherry bomb"? Not familiar with that. Explain please.
[/quote]

[leggwork]

re retail pump gas - since we’re not allowed to change the ecu/timing, isn’t the only value of higher octane gas for safety in avoiding pre-ignition? Why limit that? I also wonder how it would be checked - would we also need an SCCA style fuel port?

thanks,
bruce

[BETO]

That’s a "cherry bomb", duh. I was thinking of getting that, well similar from Summit made by Magnaflow. It’s around $70. I like it cheaper.
Yeah, "spec exhaust" has to be street legal, but still you can modify the interior of the exhaust, cat. How are you going to check that?

[Igor]

leggwork wrote:

[quote]Igor wrote:

2. rear swaybar - it’s been brought up few times ( even during times when we were on Yahoo groups) so I will not detail it now. This is actually the area that i think people might spend a lot of money as series grows, and hence creating bigger discrepancy between performance of the cars (as opposed to developing end of exhaust pipes). I understand that choices are not easy as it would require spec bar, or be it "free" and then people might "thinker" with setting on the track. My vote here would for it to be free - there isn’t much that we can thinker on these cars (which is good!) but also part of good racer is to know and understand the car, so if someone wants to use their knowledge to fine tune the car let it be

Not sure if I am misreading your suggestion here Igor - but we already have a spec rear bar, or are you commenting on the adjustabililty of it?

thanks,
bruce[/quote]

Yeah, I was talking about adjustability (good catch – I see how it can be unclear from what I wrote). The way the rules are written right now we “sort of have free adjustability� which allows for this scenario - If we ever grow to the size of SM, there is a chance that there will be couple Joe Buck$ racer that can afford 10 different bars with 10 different settings, and will try to use that as an advantage. Most people on this forum have knowledge (from different series) to what lengths people will go in order to gain even smallest advantage. So to me it’s not a question IF this will happen, but rather when. In my opinion, to remedy this is to specify adjustability, or let it be free and have people adjust the way they want it – it will be cheaper for everyone involved (note that I am saying adjustability of the bar, not dimensions of the bar).
I actually care more about RTABs . I already have currently legal bar and RTABs so this will not affect me (at least not for few years), but am just giving suggestions to have less ambiguous rules (IMO ofcourse).

P.S. BETO, The way the rules are written now you can’t just take HP numbers from BMW, since our rules allow for +1 size pistons and hence will make just slightlyyy over factory numbers (since you are increasing displacement )

[mskeen]

Exhaust: Please give us a hint! I’m ok with this in theory, but I am planning to put an exhaust on my car in the next two weeks and would like not to do it twice.

Dyno: the problem with setting an upper limit is that there are too many variables day-to-day, and you can’t always have the same type of dyno at every event. If your upper limit is 170, but it’s a bad day and most cars are at 140, someone could still make 20hp more. I think a percentage above the mean is best (assuming that’s not an auto DQ); then just look at the car more closely.

Fuel: any tracks out there that don’t have retail gas stations near by where someone might want to fill up at the track for time’s sake? I seem to remember someone in this position, but can’t remember. Just a thought.

I’m not really sure what you’re thinking in reference to the interior mirror. I think the option of a wink or convex is good.

[kchildre]

On the exhaust. If the purpose of the rules were stability then I recommend leaving the exhaust rules as is. The existing field of racers have already invested money in their current exhaust systems which may or may not meet your planned spec exhaust. That means all of those racers have to spend money (again) to remain legal. The biggest issue I see is the street legal v/s race exhausts. To truly be fair, the spec exhaust should allow for the possibility of street legal racers. I drove my car to/from events last year. Why not leave the rules as is (stability) and let each driver decide whether or not they want to spend as much as they want to spend on the exhaust.

On the Mirror: I use a convex mirror (and like it immensely) and would like it to be legal

On the locked differentials: I don’t know of anyone that has (or is planning on) locking their differential.

One more item of consideration, if you don’t mind, would be a reconsideration on the legality of fixed camber plates. I would like to propose the ability for a racer to choose whether or not they want to spend the money on adjustable plates or just go with fixed camber plates.

Keep up the good work

[screwynewy]

kchildre wrote:

[quote]On the exhaust. If the purpose of the rules were stability then I recommend leaving the exhaust rules as is. The existing field of racers have already invested money in their current exhaust systems which may or may not meet your planned spec exhaust. That means all of those racers have to spend money (again) to remain legal. The biggest issue I see is the street legal v/s race exhausts. To truely be fare, the spec exhaust should allow for the possibility of street legal racers. I drove my car to/from events last year. Why not leave the rules as is (stability) and let each driver decide whether or not they want to spend as much as they want to spend on the exhaust.

On the Mirror: I use a convex miror (and like it immensly) and would like it to be legal

On the locked differentials: I don’t know of anyone that has (or is planning on) locking their differential.

One more item of consideration, if you don’t mind, would be a reconsideration on the legality of fixed camber plates. I would like to propose the ability for a racer to choose whether or not they want to spend the money on adjustable plates or just go with fixed camber plates.

Keep up the good work[/quote]

All very good points and FWIW I agree with all of them.

[mrussell]

Agreed. Rules stability is great but these are "open issues" (IMHO) that still need to be addressed.

[sharkd]

Exhaust: Like Mike, I have a pair of $25 cherry bombs that I was about to install and would not like to do this twice in one year, so a decision sooner rather than later appeals to me. Right now, they’re still in the box and I can eBay them, once we reach the middle of February, I don’t think that will still be the case.

Mirrors: I currently have a convex Longacre mirror installed. There’s a non-distorting, single-piece AllView sitting in the box, ready to be installed. I’d be happy if both were technically legal. In addition, a couple of drivers have little spot mirrors on their cages – AFAICT, they’re illegal under the 6/6/06 Rules.

Dynos: Since I’m (currently) on the low end of the spectrum, I’d be perfectly happy if the rules allowed last place to claim 1st place’s motor… (I kid, I kid.)

[robweenerpi]

We’ll check cam lift

This will not be adequate I don’t think. It is possible to add hardened material to an OEM cam without changing lift, then grind it to a different spec. You can add duration without increasing lift which can give a marginal gain that is very useful. I’d prefer if we came up with a very detailed spec on what the cams must be in lift, duration, and overall profile.

[leggwork]

and how would you check it at the track? Or would this only be in a post-weekend post-protest teardown?
cheers,
bruce

robweenerpi wrote:

[quote]We’ll check cam lift

This will not be adequate I don’t think. It is possible to add hardened material to an OEM cam without changing lift, then grind it to a different spec. You can add duration without increasing lift which can give a marginal gain that is very useful. I’d prefer if we came up with a very detailed spec on what the cams must be in lift, duration, and overall profile.[/quote]