RULES NERD QUESTION #2

#1

Cell…lots of cars need them to prevent fuel starvation but as I look at the rules, it must be a FIA ($$$$$) cell. Why not the blow molded metal can cells available? Chuck

#2

I’ve only known one Spec E30 car in the Southeast that had a cell. Robinson threw a metric sh!t-tonne of parts at his fuel starvation issue before installing a cell. He’s a great friend, but not known for a cool, methodical attack of a problem.

I’m not convinced that it is any cheaper to put in a cell (FIA or otherwise) than to install all new fuel system parts. The stock tank location is – in my opinion based on absolutely no knowledge, training, or natural aptitude for engineering – really damn safe. Under the rear seat, between the axles, inboard enough to take a hell of a side impact…

Every time I see a fuel cell hanging in the spare tire well performing valuable duty as crumple zone, I shake my head in amazement.

#3

No reason that I know of. A rule change request would just have to be made to state a good case for it.

The only person I know of that has put in a fuel cell was Jim Robinson. He, like almost everyone that joined SpecE30 in it’s first couple of years is gone now, especially sad in his case because he was hilarious. See www.DTOMRacing.com

Jim spent a lot of money with BW(IIRC) to get the fuel cell installed and he occasionally remarked that it was not recalled as money well spent.

I’ve had 3 '87’s and they all hiccuped even tho hoses had been replaced and fuel tanks were sparkiing clean inside. The folks that have fixed the problem all seem to have fixed it in different ways so that just adds to the mystery. The baffling near the LP pump wasn’t designed for a race car.

#4

Generally most people have thrown money (down the drain) at the problem. The design of the tank is for European tracks, not USA. Those that have rectified the problem have spent $$$$ getting the stock system to work. Would be much easier to install a $300 cell with a surge tank and forget fuel starvation…unless you completely run out like I did. The bottom of the dipstick was damp!! CB

#5

If I was still doing enduros it might be an interesting project to install something like the IE surge tank, but with 35-40min races, why bother?

#6

It took me a day to remember how to log in, but here I am.

We replaced every conceivable component related to the fuel system in my old car and still had issues. Unfortunately the only way to test it was to pitch the car about as hard as you could on track. So the formula was something like spend $$$ to replace something, spend $$$ to waste track time to find out it didn’t work. To Steve’s point a lot of this was done using the replace parts method, but Digel got involved at some point. He found a bad connector leading to the fuel pump that helped but didn’t fix 100%.

Eventually I added the $$$ to the $$$ and came up with a fuel cell $$$$$$. A little of this decision was made by my desire to do enduros.

With all that said, I don’t believe there is any need to go that far, especially since all the organizations are now expiring the bladders in the cells, along with anything else they can attempt to expire in the name of [strike]revenue generation[/strike], I mean your safety. I don’t buy into the safety issues with these things. BimmerWorld backed one of their cars into the wall at VIR at 100+mph and didn’t have a problem. Most of these are FIA rated. SFI is a scam, FIA despite being mostly French, appears to know their stuff. You can go to the ATL website I think and see pictures of the car smushed. But it is expensive to fabricate the firewall for the trunk area, mount it, etc. Basically (like most racing things) plan on spending money until you start to question your sanity.

IF I had to do this all over again mildly cheaper (and I haven’t read the rules but this all used to be kosher) -

I’d take a new fuel tank and gajigger (fabricate) a way to mount a surge tank then place probably 2 lift pumps at the bottom on either saddle to fill it. This site makes some cool stuff that might work - http://www.intengineering.com/

Of course the gold standard is the ATL “black box”. Search on ebay for that and you’ll see what I"m talking about. You can find just the box (usually the 2 door model) from the roundy round crowd for about $70 - $100. I’d also fill the gas tank saddles with the fuel cell foam to prevent it from sloshing around as much. The gold standard fuel pump is the bosch 044 apprx $250 ish.

I’d say a typical Continental fuel cell setup is in the neighborhood of $5-7k when you add up all the various fittings, fuel pumps, quick release crap, etc.

Bonne Chance!

#7

[quote=“cwbaader” post=67057]The design of the tank is for European tracks, not USA.[/quote]Wait. What?

That one sentence may contain the least factual information ever on an internet forum. :laugh:

Are you saying that the production E30 fuel tank was designed with race tracks in mind?

I dare say NOTHING on our cars when factory fresh was designed with a race track in mind.

#8

I have a spare Bosch fuel pump bought on felbay for $45 NIB! The black box is great but not necessary. On my Jazz cell, I made a 4 door surge box and used a Holley low pressure pump as a lift pump to feed the Bosch pump through a fuel accumulator. Cell foam holds it in place. Absolutely no fuel feed problems. I can duplicate the whole thing for $500ish not counting labor. I like to fabricate: it took me two days to do the first one (totaled car into wall T1 at RA backwards at approximately 70mph…cell was fine, just had to buy new can.) and about 5 hours to do the second.

Point is, cells are just as safe (or more so) than the stock tank. They improve weight distribution. They allow you to carry less gas and compensate by adding weight where it needs to be. And they do get rid of the fuel starvation problem that everyone seems to have. CB

#9

[quote=“cwbaader” post=67069]… the fuel starvation problem that everyone seems to have. CB[/quote]Just to help the new folks and those checking the series out, not everyone has fuel starvation problems. Very few, in fact, have starvation problems during sprint races.

Moving the fuel back to the trunk may improve weight distribution but it increases polar moment. Personally, I think our cars (which, by the way, behave differently from CB’s because of his true IT race suspension) are tail happy enough without adding weight hanging off the back.

#10

I think this question is moot (if I’m understanding), since general safety things like this are governed by the broader NASA CCR vs. the individual series rules. The big NASA rule book says they have to be FIA bladder vs. a homemade box / dragster type. The general trend with all of this ‘safety’ equipment is to be more restrictive and paranoid. So the argument would have to be made with those folks (again if memory serves).

To Steve and Ranger’s point this is probably less of a concern for anyone that isn’t interested in running to the last drop (ie endurance vs. sprint racing).

I had a 16 gallon cell in the trunk and when it was full the handling changed noticeably from when it was empty.

#11

European tracks are all CCW…the largest part of the E30 tank is on the right. The dominating M3 used a stock E30 configuration tank but smaller. Nuff said!

Point is, you can install a safe cell without paying $1500 for a FIA legal cell. I am suggesting a rule change to allow blow molded cells as other groups do.

The handling on my car does not change from 10gal in the cell to 1gal after a 45 minute race.

People that do not have starvation problems are starting with 15-16gals of fuel…full tank. That can work, but everyone I race with that uses a stock tank on an E30 has starvation problems. And no matter where it is, I want to carry the least I can get by with.

Steve, you aren’t coming out for another whippin at RA next weekend? Chuck

#12

If the car is has the 63L tank (from 9/87 on), installing an early model transfer pump in the left side and replacing the right side pump with one from a late production 318is (it has a return fitting for the output of the transfer pump) will allow running the tank darn near empty (I get starvation when there is 2-3gal left in the tank). Cost is about the same as a what you propose, but it is a heck of a lot easier to do.

#13

[quote=“cwbaader” post=67072]
People that do not have starvation problems are starting with 15-16gals of fuel…full tank. [/quote]That has not been my experience. I run the car to empty, start with just enough fuel to finish at weight. My car does not starve. Some people do have starvation issues – not all people.

[quote]Steve, you aren’t coming out for another whippin at RA next weekend? Chuck[/quote]I am racing mostly NASA this year. You may consider beating out of class cars a “whipping”. I think that’s called DE. Or TT.:laugh:

#14

This would be a CCR rule change. Someone will need to explain to me who makes those decisions and who you need to propose the change to.

#15

[quote=“turbo329is” post=67075][quote=“cwbaader” post=67072]
Point is, you can install a safe cell without paying $1500 for a FIA legal cell. I am suggesting a rule change to allow blow molded cells as other groups do.
[/quote]

This would be a CCR rule change. Someone will need to explain to me who makes those decisions and who you need to propose the change to.[/quote]
Send an email to your NASA Regional Director for him to forward to National. Or, better yet, first start a thread at various forums and see what others think. If folks like your idea, you’ll find that smart folks might come out of the woodwork with all sorts of statistics and supporting arguements that you can use to bolster your case. Then you could use everything you learned in those threads to make a good case for the CCR change in your email.

Corner-Carvers and RoadRaceAutox are two forums to check out. Be careful at C-C tho, they can be hard on newbies.

#16

Actually, Steve, I do like beating out of class cars…during a race.

I was referring to your running the SM in SCCA…that’s what I call a whoppin:laugh: Chuck