Don, I opened the can,but it looks like all of the worms have escaped.
A good way to close the can would be to allow your items b),c)and d) to be dictated by common sense. And I’ve witnessed common sense in action and it does prevail.
But the rules is the rules.
So, my misguided attempt to “establish” a grey area for the rules makers is just that…misguided. Seriousy, my apologies to them for starting this mess.
There have been some good points discussed. And my take-away is that there is already a manner to address items of dubious compliance. Robinson noted the CCRs and the old note-in-the-log-book system will/does work. Al’s protest 'em if it is something of major importance sez it all.
I feel like I may need to clarify my previous point about rules being enforced. I was in no way trying to slight Chuck here in the southeast about not enforcing rules if anyone took it that way. I have raced in 2 amateur series and neither have been adamant about inspecting cars. My point was that we could be more diligent. Some things are simple like checking camber with a camber gauge, weighting not only after a race but qualifying as well everytime if scales are available and measuring track width. Just standing off to the side of track and listening sometimes is good enough.
I’ll follow up on Damion’s point here. I’ve raced in the BMWCCR and never even seen a car weighed.
So this isn’t the only place where the enforcement is a little off. But realistically weight is easy to check and it is checked (both qualifying and race I’ve been selected ‘at random’ for both). Even if we checked all the easy stuff I doubt anyone would get caught out, and if they did how much difference would it really make. -3.6 vs -3.5? I doubt that is a tenth of a second.
It comes back to the dyno / HP / engine stuff since that is where the performance is. No one wants to check those things to the rules (I don’t blame them I’m not in love with pulling a hot head off a car). And no one wants to be the bad guy (me either). I’m still concerned that a) some goofy dyno comes along and makes a legal car ‘illegal’ b)how do you build a car to the limit of the rules when that rule is variable and not understood, etc etc.
I certainly don’t have the answers. I also don’t want to spend the hour or two between sessions measuring sh!t on my car. That is when I talk smack to Jones.
I couldn’t agree more. The drivers/builders know these cars better than anyone else. Asking some other NASA official to be the ‘enforcement committee’ is too indirect.
You can file a protest or you can talk to the other guy first. I like Al’s approach. If you’ve talked with the other guy, compared data/video, and looked over his car - and - you still believe there’s something fishy, let paper fly!
There’s a lot that can be learned from competitors. “You have a lot of motor” will be met with a cold shoulder. “Man! You are killing me on the back straight. Can you show me how you get such a good run out of 7?” might actually learn you something. Like the sumbitch is running a 4.10. Hypothetically speaking.
donstevens wrote:
Most of the bitching has to do with HP/weight. I’d love for a repeatable, accurate dyno rule to be produced. The power differences in 90% of the cars don’t make the significant lap time difference. Setup, tires and the driver do.
donstevens wrote:
If you meet the safety rules and aren’t messing up the points, run it and pre-DQ yourself with the officials.
I am firmly in the spec-each-part-you-can camp. I know exhausts cost a lot of guys a lot of money, but that is one component that absolutely should be spec IMO.
donstevens wrote:
There are mixed-model series and there are spec series. Spec series work best with one model. Ask me why I own a 1990 and a 1999 Miata - and wished I had the 1994 last year.
donstevens wrote:
Kudos to Robert for talking rules. I think rules and enforcement need to be separate discussions. The argument ‘why write a new rule, it won’t be enforced’ should not apply. But rules should be written so that anyone can apply them and come up with the same result in the tech shed (e.g. diff breakaway test should be performed at a specific temperature).
At the end of the day, we are responsible for our own enforcement. If you want a traveling tech patrol with whistlers for compression, shock dyno, or whatever, be prepared to pony up some larger $.
plenty of prepared and stock class cars get weighed at bmw club races…although i have been to some events where cars didnt get weighed, similar to my experience with GTS challenge in nasa (which has a hp/wt based classing system)
Steve, I agree that we should have a spec exhaust, but I would suggest that some of our “spec exhaust” systems are no longer spec when they have been modified for a better fit. Its easy to tell which ones haven’t been modified, they all but scrape the ground. Nothing against Paul, I know he wanted to give us an inexpensive spec system, but until these things are made on a jig, you can’t really call them spec.
I guess when I say ‘spec’ I mean ‘spec enough.’ That varies with the component.
Show me how to install the exhaust in compliance with the rules (“Minor adjustments may be made to the Spec Exhaust system to help with fitment. Any adjustment made can serve no secondary purpose.” ) and gain any perceptible performance gain.
To me, spec does not mean absolutely identical in every way. Are there differences in how our systems are mounted? Yes. Does that impact performance, no. Spec enough for me.
Steve D.
PS - My earlier post was not intended to suggest I want to purchase a 1994 Miata. Unless you have one with hardtop in running condition that will pass the GA emission test for $1500 or less.
I think this is the point some are missing. The rules are enforced by the protest system in most cases. If people think there is not enough rules enforcement, they have no one to blame but themselves. In the MA, the system gets used. We see guys who try to bend the rules get punnished by other competitors. Its not taken too personally (usually) because both guys (usually) understand its the only way to keep the series competitive. If the drivers want a rule enforced, all they have to do is fill out the form…
I think this is the point some are missing. The rules are enforced by the protest system in most cases. If people think there is not enough rules enforcement, they have no one to blame but themselves. In the MA, the system gets used. We see guys who try to bend the rules get punnished by other competitors. Its not taken too personally (usually) because both guys (usually) understand its the only way to keep the series competitive. If the drivers want a rule enforced, all they have to do is fill out the form…[/quote]
Robert, what are you basing this on?
Can you give me an example of a Mid-Atlantic protest that was filed in 2008?
As far as I know, I am up there with the most protests filed…with one. I withdrew it.
-Vic
I hope to make Comp School in July at VIR. I probably won’t run for points until 2010(maybe).
Al has it right. The class should be more or less self policing. There are rules already in place for protests - follow them if you feel so compelled. Keep in mind they must be specific and there are fees associated with them. I just glanced through the CCR quickly and couldn’t find it but I’m sure that protests found to be unsupported get paid for by the protester. Additionally, the officials have the capacity to disregard a protest. Just bare in mind we all play in the same sand box.
I don’t think weighing cars on a regular basis would be that bad or hard to do…provided somebody had a set of scales they could lug around to each event. Maybe voluntary weighing before a race and selective mandatory after a race? Traqmate has a HP feature in the most recent software release. However, it’s accuracy is somewhat limited based on the weight entered for the car,GPS accuracy and the need for a level, 4th gear flat out acceleration zone. You can put in the “wet” weight of the car, but every gallon of gas you burn is a loss of about 6 lbs.
When rule changes are made that affect a car built to a previous revision of the rules, why not have a grace period for a competitor to comply? Give the guy that needs to make the change(s) a reasonable time to budget for and make the change. I don’t think making the change between events is necessarily adequate time. Give him like, 4-6 months or so from the release of the new rule to implement. It seems really major changes to the rules, like discontinuation of a particular model, are given pretty long lead announcements in the rules. I think it’s a good thing and the practice of such long lead announcements should be continued.
[quote]Robert, what are you basing this on?
Can you give me an example of a Mid-Atlantic protest that was filed in 2008?
As far as I know, I am up there with the most protests filed…with one. I withdrew it.
-Vic[/quote]
You may be right that they are withdrawn before they are submitted. I’ve only heard about a few in years past (I dont know all the details and I dont think it would be good to list here). The point is that people are willing to use it if they have to.
For example if someone shows up next month with an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator, he will first be asked to remove it, then told to remove it, then protested. This happens all the time but I think it usually stops at step one. Maybe it has never had to reach that last step, but drivers are still willing to enforce the rules themselves.
