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15.6.4
Says the parts of the cage that come into contact with the driver “should” be padded. It also says that padding meeting SFI certification is “recommended.”
This is about the loosest language on earth. It literally says I don’t have to and if I did, I could use the thinnest stuff on earth.
I wasn’t planning on buying any given this rule. Do I need to?
[quote=“Foglght” post=63363]15.6.4
Says the parts of the cage that come into contact with the driver “should” be padded. It also says that padding meeting SFI certification is “recommended.”
This is about the loosest language on earth. It literally says I don’t have to and if I did, I could use the thinnest stuff on earth.
I wasn’t planning on buying any given this rule. Do I need to?[/quote]
Depends on the degree with which you value life and limb. The libertarian in me supports your right to make bad decisions re. personal safety. Me, I’ve got SFI padding everywhere.
I’ve got the almost sfi high density padding everywhere. Judging by what I’ve seen at the track most cars have none. I would put it anywhere your knees hit as a minimum.
I’m just trying to make sure that when I get to the tech inspection they don’t tell me I can’t race because I don’t have padding in the places they think it should go, when it appears it doesn’t specifically call that out as being needed.
I will probably purchase some anyway…
[quote=“Foglght” post=63366]I’m just trying to make sure that when I get to the tech inspection they don’t tell me I can’t race because I don’t have padding in the places they think it should go, when it appears it doesn’t specifically call that out as being needed.
I will probably purchase some anyway…[/quote]
When it comes to tech inspections, anything that you do that is unusual, like potentially no cage padding, can easily cause concern at the tech inspection. So if a person wants to go their own way on something, be sure to have the rule book close at hand.
You should also be aware that the race director and regional director are free to do what they want. As it should be. So if they don’t like the fact that you’ve no cage padding, they are entirely within their powers to point you to some vender trailer and say “go buy yourself some padding or you’re not racing”.
Back before we were required to have a metal strap holding the battery down, the requirement was something vague that simply required that the battery be held down without directing any particular way. My battery hold down at the time was a pair of flex ties, the biggest flex ties the world has every seen. I figured they were strong enough to lift the car with. The tech inspector didn’t like them and I had to head out to an autoparts store and buy a conventional battery hold down. The morale of this story is that just because you think you’re within the rules, doesn’t necessarily mean that the tech inspector is going to like it.
That’s interesting. I had no idea NASA was that disorganized. And I could see your situation being something noted in the logbook. Just don’t want to be nickel and dimed to death.
And the metal strap only applies to relocated batteries…you literally made me go look through the rules again (swearing a lot) and find the rule cause I thought I just was about to spend more money I didn’t want to.
You wouldn’t get a passing tech inspection from me without padding. It’s on the NASA supplied checklist to tech inspectors.
[color=#000088]28.1.13 Should vs. Shall
The word “should” is used throughout this rulebook; and in order to fully grasp its meaning, the following explanations have been created. When the word “should” is used, it can be taken to mean that something should be done in accordance with this book, or the driver can expect the stewards to disallow track time, if they catch the issue. The reason that it’s stated as “should,” is to add emphasis that it’s really, and ultimately, the driver’s responsibility. Because Inspectors, Instructors, Flaggers, and Officials in general, tend to be human, it is an assumed risk of this activity that a mistake can be made. Therefore, the driver is ultimately held responsible for his or her own safety.
Furthermore, the word “should” also makes an implication of fallibility and/or corrects false expectations. For example, “the flagger should display a yellow flag,” the yellow flag in question may not show because of 1) it relies on the flagger’s judgment, and that can be subjective, and 2) the flagger is human and can make a mistake. Therefore, if one is not willing to risk their safety because they expect other people to be perfect, then they cannot participate in NASA.
To sum it up, the word “should” can be construed in the context of these examples:
a) “The driver should have roll cage padding (if they expect to be let on track).”
b) “The official should check for roll cage padding (implying that, even though they do their best, the Inspectors can miss something).[/color]
[quote=“Foglght” post=63368]That’s interesting. I had no idea NASA was that disorganized. And I could see your situation being something noted in the logbook. Just don’t want to be nickel and dimed to death.
And the metal strap only applies to relocated batteries…you literally made me go look through the rules again (swearing a lot) and find the rule cause I thought I just was about to spend more money I didn’t want to.[/quote]
It’s not a matter of being disorganized, it’s a hallmark of a good organization that doesn’t micromanage it’s subordinate leaders. Good organizations provide “guidance” to subordinate leaders that they can choose to ignore if they feel they have compelling reason to do so and are ready to defend their decision if called on it.
Shitty organizations micromanage every detail and everything runs poorly.
The military has an idea along the lines of “the way to create an effective organization is to pick strong subordinate leaders, give them “mission, intent, and desired endstate” and then let them find their own way”.
I’m up on my soapbox about this because subordinate leaders having the power to make decisions based on their judgement is a big deal.
Re. “relocated batteries”. This is a reference to your battery being in your trunk, where we all have it, not a reference to locating the battery wherever you want. The requirement for the metal strap over the battery was a mid-year rule change 2-3yrs ago. I don’t know if it’s a NASA reg tho, so tech might only note if your battery is secure. Your regional SpecE30 director is sure to be aware of the requirement tho.
I’m not sure why you wouldn’t want to pad the cage, but I found that you can get the SFI stuff from the big racing shops like Summit Racing and Jegs in various thicknesses. I used the less thick stuff in the spots on my cage where I wanted space and the really thick stuff like you see on most cars in the other areas. The thinner stuff I was able to bend nicely on my curved NASCAR door bars as well.
[quote=“Ranger” post=63374]
It’s not a matter of being disorganized, it’s a hallmark of a good organization that doesn’t micromanage it’s subordinate leaders. Good organizations provide “guidance” to subordinate leaders that they can choose to ignore if they feel they have compelling reason to do so and are ready to defend their decision if called on it.
Shitty organizations micromanage every detail and everything runs poorly.
The military has an idea along the lines of “the way to create an effective organization is to pick strong subordinate leaders, give them “mission, intent, and desired endstate” and then let them find their own way”.
I’m up on my soapbox about this because subordinate leaders having the power to make decisions based on their judgement is a big deal.[/quote]
Your post has me confused as to whether or not you are for the discretion to be at the regional level?
[quote=“Ranger” post=63374]
Re. “relocated batteries”. This is a reference to your battery being in your trunk, where we all have it, not a reference to locating the battery wherever you want. The requirement for the metal strap over the battery was a mid-year rule change 2-3yrs ago. I don’t know if it’s a NASA reg tho, so tech might only note if your battery is secure. Your regional SpecE30 director is sure to be aware of the requirement tho.[/quote]
The SE30 regulation does NOT say that my battery needs a strap unless relocated. And since I am understanding now that the SE30 regs supersceed the NASA CCR…
Neither my feet or head will be tapping the rollcage anytime soon. Plus, its just another item I have to buy. I don’t want to buy anything else.
My understanding is that this is an unofficial rule that was made when a crash resulted in the battery in the OEM location becoming dislodged. I think it was in the Florida region. I’m not sure why the rule hasn’t been made official though.
[quote=“Foglght” post=63388][quote=“Ranger” post=63374]
It’s not a matter of being disorganized, it’s a hallmark of a good organization that doesn’t micromanage it’s subordinate leaders. Good organizations provide “guidance” to subordinate leaders that they can choose to ignore if they feel they have compelling reason to do so and are ready to defend their decision if called on it.
Shitty organizations micromanage every detail and everything runs poorly.
The military has an idea along the lines of “the way to create an effective organization is to pick strong subordinate leaders, give them “mission, intent, and desired endstate” and then let them find their own way”.
I’m up on my soapbox about this because subordinate leaders having the power to make decisions based on their judgement is a big deal.[/quote]
Your post has me confused as to whether or not you are for the discretion to be at the regional level?
[quote=“Ranger” post=63374]
Re. “relocated batteries”. This is a reference to your battery being in your trunk, where we all have it, not a reference to locating the battery wherever you want. The requirement for the metal strap over the battery was a mid-year rule change 2-3yrs ago. I don’t know if it’s a NASA reg tho, so tech might only note if your battery is secure. Your regional SpecE30 director is sure to be aware of the requirement tho.[/quote]
The SE30 regulation does NOT say that my battery needs a strap unless relocated. And since I am understanding now that the SE30 regs supersceed the NASA CCR…[/quote]
Re. Authority at the regional level. “For” and strongly so. Local leaders need to have the authority to call things as they see them. Should there be a problem with some local leader because they’re a nut-job and are failing to follow their boss’s intent, then get rid of him. But don’t screw with how he does busines.
Re. battery strap. A huge charm of this forum is that it provides an opportunity for newbies to learn from folks that have been doing this a while. You are free to benefit from the elders in the class and put a goddamned strap over your battery, or you can choose to be a hard-head.
“Relocation” might be a reference to relocation of the battery from the engine compartment to the trunk. In early e30’s the battery was in the engine compartment. Or the issue might have just got confused when the mid-year change came out that I mentioned a couple posts ago. Maybe someone intended to write the mid-year change in, saw the “relocation” reference and decided that covered it.
I wash my hands of the issue. I tried to help you, I failed, I’m done. It’s Monday morning, don’t piss me off.
It isn’t that I don’t appreciate your input. I had no idea “early” E30 cars had the battery in the engine compartment.
My car was designed from the factory with the battery in the trunk. How would that be a re-location?
Our rules may have omitted the requirement for a battery tie down but you won’t pass tech for an hpde or autox without it. This is the rule in the hpde section.
11.4.9 Battery
The battery shall be securely fastened to the car. No Bungee cords or rubber cords may
be used to function as the sole hold down mechanism. An electrically non-conductive
material must cover the positive battery terminal. Any battery located inside the driver’s
compartment should be fully covered and firmly secured to the chassis (or tub) in a
marine type battery case. True dry cell batteries may be mounted without a surrounding
case, however a case is still recommended.
Well we’re off the subject of roll bar padding…
Is the trunk considered the drivers compartment? That opens up a whole other can of worms.
I only bring this stuff up because it actually matters. I’m not trying to be arguementative just to argue.
What I don’t want to do is show up at the track after dropping $360 on entry fees, only to spend the entire day “fixing” my car and missing track time because the rules weren’t clearly stated to begin with.
So far, my battery is in the OEM location, with the OEM battery hold downs. The rule you just showed basically states that if you consider the drivers compartment to be the trunk, I have to buy a case and not a strap.
I’ve got the electrical tape for the positive cable. No problem.
I also will have to tow my car to a facility to get it inspected, at of course a $50 charge to me. Towing the car around ain’t cheap and the closest facility to me is about 80 miles away (at least someone who will answer the phone).
I’ve done it the other way. It sucks. The Formula SAE competition while I was back in college was the worst. SCCA was better, but not great.
Hell, last time I was at a NASA event the guys at the track kind of stared at the car for a few minutes and said I was good to go. I would be more than willing to put together a list of things that need to be checked on the E30 for compliance/tech inspection and it could be added to the rules if that is what is needed.
If the rear bulkhead is sealed off, the trunk is not considered part of the passenger compartment. If it is open, you need the box.
NASA MW/GL will do annuals and issue logbooks at the track with advanced reservation and a $50 fee. That’d be a good option for you to save the extra tow just to get an inspection, but of course, you’ll want to make sure the car is all ready. You can fix just about anything at the track–hell, I payed a guy to do a couple of 360 welds on my cage in the middle of the night in the paddock.
For alot of minor stuff, you might be able to get an exception to race that weekend, with the understanding that it has to be fixed before you show up at the next event.