Results of car 37 post race inspection

#1

http://spece30.com/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,94/func,view/catid,3/id,37163/#37163

Be nice… :slight_smile:

#2

Two big pieces of the pie you missed…

  1. These are not street cars. They need to be able to handle a large off and not endanger the driver in any way. Will’s off was big, I saw it happen. We need to design our cars to safely handle that situation, because it is going to happen again and again.

  2. The spec exhaust is not like the OEM piece; it lacks the OEM hanger at the back of the transmission the isolates the more fragile downtubes from the rest of the exhaust.

Why the push back on adding a flex joint? Make it optional if you want, it has ABSOLUTELY NO IMPACT ON PERFORMACE, nobody can argue that it won’t make my car just that much safer, and the cost is negligable…approx $45.

To put it in perspective, I have a 5 pound halon fire system that costs $350, what do you have, a $50 handheld? Both are legal, it is our option to choose. My car has a $3500 cage, or you can run can autopower for $650, your choice, both legal. Is one safer then the other? YES!

If it is your goal to go out in a flash of glory as a club racecar driver, more power to you, but let me spend the extra money and die of old age please.

(post not directed at you walter)

#3

mikeski38 wrote:

It’s not that the Spec exhaust lacks the hanger, it’s that the installer chose not to retain the hanger.

A little melodramatic?

  1. Statistically speaking, is being overcome by CO the most likely way to get hurt in SpecE30? Is it even in the top 5?

  2. Are their other ways to address the problem? Like use the hanger and inspect/replace your downtubes as needed?

  3. Have you looked at scooping air into the cockpit to add to ventilation?

  4. If you feel strongly that it’s an important safety measure, just do it and ask for forgiveness.

I’m not saying that you are wrong, mind you. But maybe you are kind of getting more worked up over this then the situation warrants. And frankly, that’s a problem. Because becoming obsessed with some obscure problem is the role for me and complainer-in-residence Jim Robinson.

At the end of the season there will be an opportunity to suggest rule changes for 2010. Just make your case then for an optional flex tube thing. And by then folks will be so tired of me and Jim that you’ll seem like the voice of calm reason.

#4

Ranger wrote:

[quote]mikeski38 wrote:

It’s not that the Spec exhaust lacks the hanger, it’s that the installer chose not to retain the hanger.

A little melodramatic?

  1. Statistically speaking, is being overcome by CO the most likely way to get hurt in SpecE30? Is it even in the top 5?

  2. Are their other ways to address the problem? Like use the hanger and inspect/replace your downtubes as needed?

  3. Have you looked at scooping air into the cockpit to add to ventilation?

  4. If you feel strongly that it’s an important safety measure, just do it and ask for forgiveness.

I’m not saying that you are wrong, mind you. But maybe you are kind of getting more worked up over this then the situation warrants. And frankly, that’s a problem. Because becoming obsessed with some obscure problem is the role for me and complainer-in-residence Jim Robinson.

At the end of the season there will be an opportunity to suggest rule changes for 2010. Just make your case then for an optional flex tube thing. And by then folks will be so tired of me and Jim that you’ll seem like the voice of calm reason.[/quote]

To answer your questions in order…no I’m no being melodramatic

  1. Statistically speaking, passing out while on track has been responsible for 3 of the 5 deaths at club racing events in the last 4 years. One of them at a nasa event. So I would say CO piosoning could be linked to the #1 leading cause of death to club racers in recent history.

  2. adding the hanger is illegal per the rules, and I was told I could only fun run it I were to install it. Unfortunately for me, my car ran at the front of the pack and was scruntinized heavily.

  3. Due to the special properties of CO, scooping air into the cockpit will only delay the effects. People can be overcome by CO even in wide open spaces. I am a tournament waterskier as well, and a form of wakeboarding (wakesurfing) is actually illegal in CA due to the riders proximity to the exhaust, people have passed out and drown from CO.

  4. That just not my style. Further, if I believe that there is a major safety concern with our cars, and a $45 part could help to solve it, I feel it is my responsibility to persue.

Aren’t you the guy asking to have rod bearings custom machined to improve oiling? Sounds expensive to me, much then $45 I’d wager…

#5

How many of the guys that passed out did it because of CO? I follow the club racing news pretty closely and I’ve never heard of CO being that big of a threat. But maybe it is, and I’m just out of the loop and wrong.

The hanger is not illegal. At worst it’s a grey area. The hanger is an OEM piece. Removing it might be construed as illegal, but using it, surely not.

The Spec exhaust is designed to be attached to the OEM attachment points. The hanger would logically be construed as one of those points.

What’s special about CO? Hemoglobin prefers it, ok, so what? You still need concentrations to succumb by it, even if it’s relatively low concentrations. I’m not saying that improved cockpit ventalation is a panacea, but it’d still help.

The laws of the socialist nanny state of CA are product of, and problem of, it’s residents. I mean no offense to you. I spent the 80’s there as a Marine and I don’t even recognize the place now.

Re. improving main oiling by putting a groove in the main caps. Yup, I’m the guy. But that’s my obsession. I’m harrassing you about your obsession. If you want to harass me about my obsession we have to go to my thread.

#6

I wouldnt run without the transmission hanger, otherwise you are going to break the downpipes at the upper flange. Until I get the tab welded on, I use a muffler clamp/hanger bolted to the trans mount bracket. Also we have had 2 or maybe 3 exhast come loose in the SE…without that bracket you are likely to scatter pieces on the track, or melt yout swaybar bushings, or pass out from CO.

Al

#7

Ranger wrote:

Dude, what are you talking about?

BTW, that was a “dude” with my best hella Norcal spin.

Bottom line is this is not a performance question but one of safety, therefor it shouldn’t be a question at all. Peace out from norcal.

#8

It would only be a safety issue if it actually existed. The car took a HUGE hit and the exhaust did not leak. The facts do not lie, I am just here to present the outcome of a car inspection, I am sorry if it did not meet your expectations.

How about we build cars that fit the rules and go race? It is much more fun that way.

#9

mikeski38 wrote:

[quote]Ranger wrote:

Dude, what are you talking about?

BTW, that was a “dude” with my best hella Norcal spin.

Bottom line is this is not a performance question but one of safety, therefor it shouldn’t be a question at all. Peace out from norcal.[/quote]

Re. “what are you talking about?”. Your reference to CA outlawing wakeboarding. Maybe I was over the top. The Libertarian in me sometimes gets fired up. Sorry.

Re. “dude”. I use that word a lot. At age 46 it might be a little juvenile, but it’s just such a handy word.

Re. “it shouldn’t be a question”. I’m not saying it’s a bad idea. I just stuck my nose in because you were using an urgent tone to address something I perceived to be an unlikely scenario. But maybe it happens more often then I realized. I also pointed out that you can better support your exhaust to reduce stress on the downpipe. In addition to the support piece at the tranny, you could put brackets on it every 12" if you wanted.

I’ve wire tied my rubber donuts and put a piece of steel strapping under the muffler. No one is going to care about that because it’s all common sense stuff. If you put a couple extra support brackets on your exhaust system to reduce the stress on your downpipes, no one’s going to care.

You’re taking the right approach . Document the cases where folks in club racing passed out from CO and then submit your idea as an allowable mod when Carter asks for rule change suggestions this Fall.

If you make your case right, NASA will see it as a possible liability issue and rubber stamp it.

#10

vmwerks wrote:

[quote]It would only be a safety issue if it actually existed. The car took a HUGE hit and the exhaust did not leak. The facts do not lie, I am just here to present the outcome of a car inspection, I am sorry if it did not meet your expectations.

How about we build cars that fit the rules and go race? It is much more fun that way.[/quote]

Sure, I guess I digress.

#11

mikeski38 wrote:

You can’t spell “digress” without “Gress.” :wink:

Steve D.

#12

vmwerks wrote:

Sorry if I am pointing out the obvious, but if the exhaust was not comprimised, where did the CO come from? Did you find at least a bad gasket then?

#13

ChrisLock wrote:

[quote]vmwerks wrote:

Sorry if I am pointing out the obvious, but if the exhaust was not comprimised, where did the CO come from? Did you find at least a bad gasket then?[/quote]

All the studies dealing with CO poisoning in race cars deals with CO incursion fro the cars in FRONT of the affected driver.

#14

vmwerks wrote:

[quote]ChrisLock wrote:

[quote]vmwerks wrote:

Sorry if I am pointing out the obvious, but if the exhaust was not comprimised, where did the CO come from? Did you find at least a bad gasket then?[/quote]

All the studies dealing with CO poisoning in race cars deals with CO incursion fro the cars in FRONT of the affected driver.[/quote]

ALL the studies? Every study EVER on CO was focused on the exhaust of other cars? I find that hard to believe.

This is a spec series, and we were all running nose to tail, not just Will. I don’t follow your causality for his incident. You are basically saying the a small hole in the firewall trapped more CO than the two open windows and the cab vents. C’mon, your grasping now…

Even if the damage is not from the crash, that car HAS to have some kind of exhaust leak, even if it were hairline, and perhaps not immediately obvious.

#15

As I understand it, the effects of CO exposure can be cumulative so different people will react differently.

A couple interesting reads:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/02/sports/othersports/02AUTO.html


http://stockcarscience.com/blog/index.php?cat=81

Given enough idling time on grid beforehand (even without an exhaust leak), the CO poisoning could begin there. I suppose it is possible for it to continue to worsen on track. Given the heat in the cockpit, that might exascerbate the symptoms the driver is feeling.

The more prevalent issue I have seen on the SCCA/National/Miata side is the exotic fuels with their nasty additives. Driving around behind one of those cars is enough to make your eyes and lungs burn. But if those extra 4 hp get you a $4 trophy…

Steve D.

PS - If I really wanted to pile on the spec exhaust, I would point out that mine (and most I’ve looked at) don’t do a very good job of getting the exhaust past the bumper/bodywork.

#16

The flow of CO into the cockpit of a race car is not an infantry simple issue. What is unique about a race car? There’s sure to be an assload of DD’s currently on the road with exhaust leaks and I don’t see an epidemic of folks passing out and driving into trees. Especially interesting since it doesn’t seem to be happening much when folks idle in gridlock.

So what is unique about a race car or racing? Maybe there is something to the idea ththat the combo of hauling ass nose-to-tail with open windows creates a scenario that occasionally allows CO to build up.

A couple weeks ago I was racing after significant motor work and I ended up having a huge exhaust leak because a downpipe was separating from a manifold. I didn’t figure it out and fix it until after an enduro, practice, qual, and race.

What if the real culprit was the fact that running with our windows open causes a low pressure zone in the cockpit that sucks in exhaust from the cars in front of us? Based on the low number of DD driver’s passing out, the open windows theory is as plausible as the exhaust leak theory.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not stating that open windows are sucking in exhaust or doing anything else. It’s just a contrary point providing food for thought.

#17

Ranger wrote:

As I understand it, the absence of catalytic converters means we are pumping out a lot of CO rather than CO2 or H2O.

Steve D.

#18

Steve D wrote:

[quote]Ranger wrote:

As I understand it, the absence of catalytic converters means we are pumping out a lot of CO rather than CO2 or H2O.
[/quote]

I agree that cats reduce CO emissions. But cats are pretty new here and very new in Europe. I haven’t heard much from the mainstream media on how many lives the cats have been saving due to reduced CO emissions.

#19

ChrisLock wrote:

[quote]vmwerks wrote:

[quote]ChrisLock wrote:

[quote]vmwerks wrote:

Sorry if I am pointing out the obvious, but if the exhaust was not comprimised, where did the CO come from? Did you find at least a bad gasket then?[/quote]

All the studies dealing with CO poisoning in race cars deals with CO incursion fro the cars in FRONT of the affected driver.[/quote]

ALL the studies? Every study EVER on CO was focused on the exhaust of other cars? I find that hard to believe.

This is a spec series, and we were all running nose to tail, not just Will. I don’t follow your causality for his incident. You are basically saying the a small hole in the firewall trapped more CO than the two open windows and the cab vents. C’mon, your grasping now…

Even if the damage is not from the crash, that car HAS to have some kind of exhaust leak, even if it were hairline, and perhaps not immediately obvious.[/quote]

Do your own research… personally I don’t care what you believe the facts are the facts. The exhaust held up fine and there was CO in the cabin where did it come from? Your more than welcome to see the car yourself, your brother did, it runs perfectly with NO exhaust leaks, drop it already.

#20

vmwerks wrote:

[quote]ChrisLock wrote:

[quote]vmwerks wrote:

[quote]ChrisLock wrote:

[quote]vmwerks wrote:

Sorry if I am pointing out the obvious, but if the exhaust was not comprimised, where did the CO come from? Did you find at least a bad gasket then?[/quote]

All the studies dealing with CO poisoning in race cars deals with CO incursion fro the cars in FRONT of the affected driver.[/quote]

ALL the studies? Every study EVER on CO was focused on the exhaust of other cars? I find that hard to believe.

This is a spec series, and we were all running nose to tail, not just Will. I don’t follow your causality for his incident. You are basically saying the a small hole in the firewall trapped more CO than the two open windows and the cab vents. C’mon, your grasping now…

Even if the damage is not from the crash, that car HAS to have some kind of exhaust leak, even if it were hairline, and perhaps not immediately obvious.[/quote]

Do your own research… personally I don’t care what you believe the facts are the facts. The exhaust held up fine and there was CO in the cabin where did it come from? Your more than welcome to see the car yourself, your brother did, it runs perfectly with NO exhaust leaks, drop it already.[/quote]

In a debate, the onus for substantiating outside information falls to the one making the point, not those s/he is making the point to. I am just saying that the information you are presenting does not make sense, that ACUTE CO poisoning(not chronic, and yes will’s was acute), is unlikely to result from any of the factors you are presenting, and not a subject of anything I have ever read. Some here have pointed this out as common sense.

I am not part of any perceived “debate” you might be engaged in, I simply offered the helpful hint that perhaps your inspection didn’t find the bad gasket or hairline crack in some flange that caused your exhaust leak, which by most standard measures, was apparent that you had. Even your driver said he could smell and perceive it, and was cupping air to his face. You have a leak my friend!