Rd Atl w/ PtreeBMW on 9/20-1 ? & 4 more ?s

#1

Just wondering if any SpecE30 folk would be at RA with me.
It’ll be my 4th DE (my 2nd at RA)… if all goes well, I’m hoping to be racing sometime next year, and I’m looking for pearls of wisdom from any/all who have travelled this path before. A few specific things on my mind right now are:

  1. I have some well worn RA-1s up front, but some brand new, unshaven R888s in back. I’m planning to get a couple more R888s to have at the track when the RA-1s start to cord, but I’m also trying to gauge/compare my lap times. I’m guessing most racers are running shaved R888s. How many seconds per lap would you estimate the shaven R888s are worth over unshaven?

  2. I’m looking for someone near ATL area (I live in Roswell) to build the rest of my rollcage. I have a nice custom 4 point rollbar, but of course I need to get the cage finished on the front end to make me nice and safe in case some redmisty teenager in a specmiata happens to collide with my baby. Any awesome and rea$onable cagebuilders nearby that you can recommend?

  3. I’m getting some UUC camber plates in a couple weeks, and my budget says that I need to install them myself. This will be my most ambitious project thus far. Any advice on this installation would be greatly appreciated.

  4. After my final DE session at RA in March, my instructor said that SpecE30 racers basically don’t lift between corners 10 and 1. I was definitely lifting coming down the hill before entry into 12. Honestly, 12 is a bit scarry to me… but… does anyone lift between 11 and 12?

Thanks in advance for any comments/advice. I hope to be racing with you soon.

#2

Hey, unfortunately I won’t be there, but Chuck Taylor who pretty much runs the Peachtree show is a Spec e30 regular (just watch out for him in turn 1).

Here are a few quick answers to your questions.

  1. I just ran new/unshaved r888s back to back with old/shaved RA1s… The r888s were definitely slower. I never came within half a second of my RA1 time. There were a few other factors and I was still trying to figure the r88s out, but I wasn’t very happy with them! I’m not really sure what would happen with the setup you’re describing. If you’re going to have them anyway, I would say go ahead and use the r888s all the way around.

2)Robinson Racing in Cumming built mine and I’m VERY happy with it. Look 'em up at http://www.robinsonracing.net/. There are a few guys around Atl that are supposed to be pretty good.

3)Camber plates are very easy to install. Once you get to looking it should make perfect sense how to get them on.

4)NO lift from 10 through 12. If you hit everything right and the car is set up right it’s not as scary as it sounds.

I hope this helps a little. The Peachtree group is a great group to run with. I wish I was going to be there… enjoy it!

#3

This is my first year racing, so understand that there are far more experienced voices then mine. That being said, the guys that have been doing this for a decade don’t really remember what it was like to suck.

You are transitioning to racing pretty early. I had ~80 DE days before I went to comp school. I thought of myself as a pretty hotshit DE guy. But I found that the racers operate at a whole 'nother skill level. To race, you need to be able to drive fast without thinking about it. Your automatic reflexes need to pretty much be adequate to the job. Your brain is going to be oriented on the folks around you. I would counsel…don’t rush the transition to racing.

At 4 events, approach the issue of managing slip angle with great care. Especially at a track as unforgiving as RA. With this plan of yours to run dissimilar tires with dissimilar amounts of wear, you need to be really really cautious and feel out their characteristics. The good news is that tires will wear a long time for you. The bad news is that the skills to sense EARLY what the tires are doing is still a ways out.

Roebling Road, near Savannah, is a more forgiving place to push the envelope.

I would not shave your R888’s. Not everyone will agree with me on this tho. I’d say that at your level you aren’t going to make them so hot that they overheat. So you’ll get more wear out of them if you leave them at full tread thickness. For you, no offense, they will likely be as fast as shaved. 75 track days from now, they might cost you a half second per lap. The guys that are really fast are spending a lot of time at peak efficiency slip angles. They are the ones who might lose a full second per lap with unshaved R888’s.

It takes some time to build up to getting thru RA turn 12 without lifting. I lift. It’s scary as shit. But I’m a bit of a wuss.

#4

I was going to go but $415 for 2 days seems a bit expensive, going to wait until December and go with NASA.

#5

I’ll just comment on the tires. At the RA race, I ran shaved R888s on Saturday and shaved RA-1s on Sunday. The R888s felt better, but I turned a slightly faster lap in quali on Sunday with the RA1s (within a tenth…any number of variables could’ve caused that). No one (except in DEs) ever ran full depth RA-1s, so I don’t know why people are doing it with the R888s. I’d agree with Ranger that it doesn’t matter for DEs/novices. No offense, but you won’t be able to run at the tire’s limit for a whole lap, much less 45 minutes.

To summarize, run whatever the hell you want. Get seat time. I would probably stick to the same type of tire on all four corners, but that may not even be necessary just for practice. You might even consider buying the cheapest all-season street tire you can find at TireRack.

#6

Both Chuck and myself are on the committee for the Peachtree schools so hopefully I can help out a bit.

First off all, let me get official business out of the way. Timing is prohibited at Peachtree driving school events (insurance purposes). With that out of the way…

  1. With a few DE’s under your belt, you aren’t driving at a consistent level to where shaved/unshaved will make a difference. I would recommend wearing out your RA-1’s and learning for a while. I did years of DE’s before moving onto R compounds. Once you do make that jump I wouldn’t shave them until you start actually racing.

  2. Robinson Racing did my cage also, but the actual builder opened his own shop up in Cumming. BJ Fisher did the work (http://genesisoneauto.com/). I highly recommend him and he does all/most of the work for Robert Patton’s cars as well as most other fabrication work for a bunch of us down here in the southeast.

  3. As far as camber plates go, you need proper spring compressors, and either air or a high torque electric impact is also helpful for the top nut on the strut tower along with a deep socket sized for it (can’t remember the size). Chuck (in his capacity as owner of Factory 3 Performance) probably has some better information).

  4. Ideally you should never lift going through turn 12. On an ideal fast lap, in a Spec E30 you should be flat out from 10a until 1, leading up to that you should always be accellerating (at some level) through 12 to keep the weight on the rear. That being said, I will concur with Ranger regarding not rushing into racing as the driving aspect of it does need t be second nature and allow you to keep your composure and wit when things go wrong. Going flat out through twelve is easy… scary, but easy. For example, one memorable lap through twelve was in qualifying. 95 mph, two left wheels on the apex gators, 1/3 brake application, full opposite lock, inches away from the other car which turned down on me.

Also, send an e-mail to kelly@peachtreebmwcca.org and request a Spec E30 instructor. No guarantees but if we can we’ll try to pair you up with someone that is familiar with E30’s. Hope this information is helpful and we’ll see you at the track in September.

#7

I’ve signed up to instruct. I’ll second (or third as the case may be) everything that’s been said above. At this point, don’t fret about your not going through T12 flat out. That’ll come as you gain skill and experience and when it does it’ll feel right.

#8

+1 for Robinson. They built the cage in my Miata and my E30. I haven’t seen the E30 yet, but the Miata cage is absolutely amazing. You can go by OPM Autosports in Cumming if you want to see Robinson’s work (and a half-built SE30 that’s supposed to be on track in about 3 weeks:blink: ).

As a way to save a buck or two, keep an eye out for take-off tires from racers. The spec miata crowd runs the same 205/50/15 RA1s this year. Next year it will be R888s in NASA and (?) in SCCA, so you can probably stock up on some old RA1s towards the end of the year that will serve your purposes just fine.

Flat through 12 is fun, but taking the car home in one piece is more fun. I was there this weekend in my street car and couldn’t get myself to not lift - much less turn off stability control. It handled great on the back straight, though. First time I’ve ever gotten a point-by from a Z06.:woohoo:

Steve D.

#9

DO NOT MIX TIRES FRONT/REAR Put like tires on the same side. I would suggest running the new full tread tires on the right side, and when the lefts cord, move the rights to the left and put the new tires on the right. If you mix front to rear, you have different grip levels and that skews the handling of the car. Good luck, Chuck

#10

To reinforce Kelly’s point, forget about lap times. As a 3-event student, and only two of them this year, you really need to focus on learning how to drive. Focus on laptimes, and you will be worrying about the wrong things.

Experience/seat time is the main thing you need now. I wouldn’t worry too much about your car’s prep level. If it’s mechanically safe, that’s pretty much good enough. As for tires, the crappier, the better, at your level of development. A nice loud street tire scream tells you that you are pushing it too hard, and you’ll learn to feel and manage understeer and oversteer better.

R-comp tires are great…until they aren’t. They tend to let go very suddenly for those who aren’t used to them, usually with ugly results. Do another few events then worry about tires. Go to events at RRR and CMP. Those are both great tracks to learn car control with a much lower risk of incident.

Lifting in 12–don’t. Just don’t. If you’re not ready to go full-throttle from 10A all the way up and down the hill, then don’t. You can power up the hill, throttle back as you crest, but you MUST apply at least some power to stabilize the car from turnin through to trackout., but when you head down the hill into 12, you are committed.

Installing camber plates, you didn’t say what else you have already in your suspension, in terms of springs/shocks/sways. If this is your most ambitious project to date, I would advise you not to do it alone armed only with the comments of an internet forum. Make a friend who knows how to do it and let him teach you something. Like many things, it’s not hard if you know how :wink:

In general, I’d say that only 3-4 schools in hand and wanting to race next year is an ambitious goal. Plan to do at least one event/month over that short a span to get even close to the proficiency level you will need to race without being a hazard to yourself and others.

#11

Great post Chuck.

I agree whole heartedly with all of the advice given here. The more track time you put in before racing the more enjoyable it will be once you start.

W2W truly is a whole 'nother ball of wax compared to HPDE’s. Get comfortable in the car at speed, and get your car control where it needs to be so its second nature to you when on track.

I definitely thought I was a really fast DE guy, until I found out what fast was (still looking by the way). Of course as the quote goes:
“All of the drivers behind me are extremely talented drivers, and everyone in front of me is obviously cheating.”

Street tires are your best friend right now. Relatively cheap and will last quite a while. You will learn more, faster on streets at your level. Whenever you have a chance to get on a skid pad, do it. That is one of your best tools.

#12

This lifting on 12 issue may require some clarification. I didn’t mean to suggest that lifting in 12 is ok. Changing the balance of your car once you are committed in a turn is a good way to end up backwards.

The point that I intended to make was that being at full throttle the entire distance between 10a and 1 takes some working up to. After I crest the hill I feather the throttle a little until I’m sure I’m going to make 12. As I head for the turn 12 turn-in at the edge of the track, I’m concentrating fiercely on the geometry of the turn 12 exit and every subtltly of what the car is doing. Meanwhile I hear voices. Screaming voices. One voice is screaming “YOU’RE GONNA DIE”, and there’s the drill instructor voice screaming “YOU’RE A PUSSY”.

At some point, usually after turn 12 turn-in, the drill instructor voice wins and I go back to WOT.

The fast guys stay WOT turn 10 to 1 and as they head into 12 they are certain that they’ll make it. Us not-so-fast types spend some time prior to 12 in less then WOT because we’re not so much certain as “hoping” we’re gonna make it.

You can calibrate your turn 12 speed prior to turn 12 entry. But once you turn in, you’d best ride it out. At the worst, any changes you make need to be pretty subtle.

#13

http://dtomracing.com/2008/07/so-you-want-to-be-race-car-driver-ive.html

Read the last paragraph a few times. And what all these other dudes said…

#14

Much thanks for all the advice. It is all much appreciated. B)

When I’m ready for the cage, it sounds like I have at least two great options close to home.

Fyi, for those of you asking about my car, I bought it last November, and the previous owner(s) already did most of the needed work on it. It is a street legal 4dr that can carry my gear to the track, has the spec springs and dampers, it is stripped out with race seats, harnesses, and even has a dash switch and bracket for a coolsuit setup. As far as I can tell, all I need is a HANS, the front end of the cage, and a fire suppression system. Sux that I don’t have ABS, but nothing’s perfect (whatever pads are on it are awesome on track).
For September the big improvement is going to be the camber plates… I’m really curious to see how much better the grip is with these. I was really tearing up the outer edges of the RA1s (had to turn them inside out on the Koseis, then wear down the other side), and I’m thinking these will help greatly.

Kelly, I put in the request for a SpecE30 instructor.

I know I’m not ready to go racing yet, but I know I’m improving… I certainly felt much smoother and relaxed at Barber than I did at RA earlier this year. I have a clear mental memory of the Barber circuit, and it just felt gooood, even though I know there’s much room for improvement. My RA memories from March are not as relaxing… RA is much more of a challenge in my mind, but I wonder how much of it is due to the circuits and how much was due to my comfort level. I’m anxious to find out next month. Anyway, most of you guys are making me now think that I may be years away from racing. Don’t worry, I won’t rush into it. I’ll wait until I’m ready and not a risk to anyone. I sure have NO interest whatsoever and damaging my car or endangering anyone.

And thanks for all the turn 12 talk… I was WOT through the turn, but I was really lifting down the hill. I just wish it had a little more runoff area.

#15

IndyJim wrote:

[quote]http://dtomracing.com/2008/07/so-you-want-to-be-race-car-driver-ive.html

Read the last paragraph a few times. And what all these other dudes said…[/quote]
Haha, great blog post :slight_smile: I think the metaphor about heroin addiction is more apropos :wink:

#16

Gilles wrote:

+1 on Chuck’s reply.

As for your outer edge wear, what kind of sway bars do you have? A stiffer front bar really helps in gaining grip and making the tires wear out evenly.

#17

Sway bars are suspension techniques 22mm and 19mm.
Receipts show most of the car build was done in 2005, but they must’ve been looking at the SpecE30 rulebook while doing it. Owner at that time was a lady who kept meticulous records, thankfully.

I imagine most people rework the entire suspension at once, but do any of you remember the feeling of your car before vs. after camber plates? I’m thinking that when I dial in the negative camber at the track, the car is going to be high maintenance in a straight line, but in the corners, grip is going to go up considerably. Are my expectations on target?

#18

Gilles wrote:

[quote]Sway bars are suspension techniques 22mm and 19mm.
Receipts show most of the car build was done in 2005, but they must’ve been looking at the SpecE30 rulebook while doing it. Owner at that time was a lady who kept meticulous records, thankfully.

I imagine most people rework the entire suspension at once, but do any of you remember the feeling of your car before vs. after camber plates? I’m thinking that when I dial in the negative camber at the track, the car is going to be high maintenance in a straight line, but in the corners, grip is going to go up considerably. Are my expectations on target?[/quote]

Car will be fine straight unless you mess with toe. Understeer in the corners will be significantly reduced. Front tires will wear much more evenly. Much happiness will result.

Work hard to get better then -3deg in front. If you are getting -2.5 to -2.9 work at it a bit more.

Note what your rear camber is too because the relationship between the two is important. I think that most folks are running a half degree to a full degree difference front to rear. An example would be -3.3 front, -2.5 rear. If you need more rear camber, look at eccentric rtabs. Those will fix toe problems too.

Don’t let me give you the impression that everything is infinitly adjustable. The rules limit what we can play with.

#19

I’ll be in the exact same boat. The car is almost finish and now I am just trying to get as much seat time before getting into the racing. I’ll be in a white e30 and will be going up Friday to try to catch rides and such.