Ranger's Dec09 motor rebuild thread (lol)

#41

cwbaader wrote:

I’ll look tonight at a thermostat housing and the spare bottom end and see if I can figure out Jim’s theory. That being said, that flow diagram has 2 kinds of arrows to depict thermostat open and thermostat closed. It shows, as you said, that water only flows to the radiator when the thermostat is open. It also shows water flowing out of the back of the head with the thermostat open or closed.

I’m not saying that the diagram has to be right, I’m just trying to interpret it.

Looking at the chart with lines and numbers, all coolant at 11 goes to the radiator as long as the thermostat is open. And it’s the water at 11 that might be an important player in cooling the rear of the motor.

#42

I think Chuck said it better than I could have. His description is completely accurate.

#43

jlevie wrote:

There is no clash here, or almost none. You guys are saying that the water goes in the block and out the head. I’m focused on the rear of the block and the head. Since you guys haven’t yet addressed what’s happening at the rear of the head, we’re talking about apples and oranges.

The only place where we differ is when Chuck said that water to the heater bypasses the radiator. The diagram says that scenario is only accurate if the thermostat is closed.

This is not me disagreeing with you and Chuck. But it might be you two disagreeing with the diagram, if we can get to an apples vs. apples comparison of assertions. I’ve no dog in this, I’m just trying to figure out if I’m interpreting the diagram correctly.

#44

I just poked around my spare block and head. There is a direct path for coolant from the front of the block (the water pump hole) to the thermostat hole on the head. So it seems to me like most water would enter the front of the motor at the block and exit the motor at the front of the head (the thermostat body).

Which brings us back to…what water flow is cooling the rear of the engine?

I’m ok with being wrong. But I want to understand this.

#45

Look at how coolant gets to the head from the block. Flow from the block reaches the head at the back and then flows forward to the thermostat housing.

Whether the thermostat is open or not, some coolant will bypass the radiator if you loop the heater hoses. Which is why you don’t want to do that. The fault with the diagram is it fails to show the heater valve. There really should be two diagrams. One with the heater valve closed and another with it open. When the heater valve is open coolant has to flow through the core and that is independent (by design) of the state of the thermostat. Hence the confusing arrows on that hose.

#46

jlevie wrote:

I hear ya, but I’m saying that I just went and looked. The water from the pump enters the front of the block and enters a large open space or “water jacket”. The block’s water jacket has multiple paths to the head. So it’s all one big interconnected area. The key is the exit point. Water will flow from the entrance to the exit. But with the rear of the head blocked off with water will largely only flow from the front of the block to the front of the head.

There is no “flow from the block reaches the head at the back and then flows forward”. Because the water just goes into an open space with ports to the head and there’s nothing to encourage any flow front to rear or vice versa.

Front of block to front of head. That’s all the flow I can see.

jlevie wrote:

I don’t care about the heater valve because that’s external to the motor. We can make external hoses do anything we want. I’m just curious about water flow at the rear of the engine.

#47

Sorry, I should have been more explicit. I was attempting to address your concern about flow through the rear part of the head. You are correct in that there are multiple small passages from the block to the head, one of which is at the rear of the block. Water flows up into the head from the block then forward to the outlet. Because passages into the head are small in comparison to the path through the head and out, there will be flow throughout the head.

#48

jlevie wrote:

I agree with the “multiple small passages” idea and how it would take a couple of those small passages to support the water flow going to the thermostat housing at the front of the head. But look at the size of the thermostat housing. It would only take 4-6 of those small passages to equal the size of the thermostat opening. And that still leaves you with stagnant coolant at cylinders 4-6.

As for looping the coolant. The diagram seems to say, looking at the two types of arrows, that the only way the thermostat affects flow is to bypass the radiator when it’s cold. The diagram doesn’t say anything about how some of the coolant from the heater bypasses the radiator. That being said, I’ve not really looked that hard at the insides of a thermostat housing and I’d want to do that to see if maybe you are right and the diagram is just ambiguous. You have a habit of being right, so it’s worth the time to check things out, you see.

#49

Oil pan is off now. Working on the car in the cold rain sucks. Taking a break to get out of my filthy sodden clothes and warm up.

#50

I put the canopy up this morning before the day’s rain started.

#51

Head removed with manifolds with some help from the hoist. Spare motor in the background.

#52

A behind the scenes look at the splitter, or more accurately, Splitter #5. Splitter’s 1-3 turned out to be crappy ideas and splitter #4 only lasted long enough to participate in a trailer loading mishap.

#53

I know the feeling!!! My current situation!!

#54

can always tell the guys who aren’t married… :wink:

#55

leggwork wrote:

Are you telling me that you married guys aren’t allowed to take apart cylinder heads on your coffee table??? Weird!!B)

#56

nope… strictly in the garage but i have used the laundry room counter late at night when she’s asleep :slight_smile: of course i didn’t have the glock in my waistband to really do it ranger style :wink:

#57
  1. You guys are shitheads. You are either “scanning” instead of “reading”, or, well, you’re just shitheads.

You let me say something idiotic and failed to correct me. I depend on you guys to help prevent me from doing idiotic things. And my saying that my compression test was flawed because I failed to put each cylinder at TDC was just, well, idiotic.

Al was here this afternoon and we were talking about my head and just as I realized the TDC thing, Al simultaneously says “A compression test doesn’t care about TDC because you’re using the starter”.

That means that the head is the (a?) problem.

  1. Who has a phone number and email for Chuck Baader. Pls send it to Scott(at)Gress(dot)org.

  2. Figured out the problem. #5 exhaust valve is frozen. It probably damaged the cam too. That’s what was making the clanking sound. Too bad I went to all the hassle to remove the oil pan.

#58

Email sent with contact info

The damage to head may not be too bad. Pull the cam and see if the journals, lobes, or bearings are scored. If the valve seized open while the engine was running, there should be a divot in the top of #5 piston. But it may turn out that all you need is a new valve and guide.

#59

I’ve not pulled a head apart before so that kinda intimidates me. Besides, heads are tricky I think. I was leaning towards sending it to Chuck.

And ok, you guys aren’t shitheads, you’re my buddies. But lets all make a silent vow that we will collectively help Ranger from doing or believing really dumb things.

#60

jlevie wrote:

[quote]Email sent with contact info
[/quote]
No email rec’d.