Ranger's Dec09 motor rebuild thread (lol)

#201

cwbaader wrote:

[quote]Ranger, you do not use a tap to clean threads…you use a thread chaser-major difference.

A note to all. I have been unable to access a factory BMW shop manual and for that reason I have used the Bentley for years with great success. The heads I am doing are not touched in any way in the ports. The original factory finish is evident in all ports flange to valve. I do, however insure the concentricity of the valve guide and the valve and use an industry standard valve grind. All clearances are for racing, not the street, for longevity. Chuck[/quote]
Let me see if I can attach a picture…

#202

Another try…

#203

Sorry - can’t edit photos in posts…

#204

and another…

#205

What I did to Ranger’s head definitely falls within those parameters. Even I don’t run a valve seat that narrow:woohoo:

Steve, I downloaded the manual listed several pages earlier in this thread but did not find those pages. My version skips from 11-109 to 11-250. Thanks for posting the salient pages. Now, if I could just download the version you have I would be ecstatic. Chuck

#206

Ranger I did not see specific mention to the rings. If you removed the pistons I hope you did replace the rings. Once the rings have been used after you remove the piston the rings crystallize and cannot be reused.
If I am wrong I am sure somebody will correct me.
Complete thread chaser kits can be purchased on any of the tool trucks. They are not that expensive

#207

rsafreno wrote:

[quote]Ranger I did not see specific mention to the rings. If you removed the pistons I hope you did replace the rings. Once the rings have been used after you remove the piston the rings crystallize and cannot be reused.
If I am wrong I am sure somebody will correct me.
[/quote]

Nope, I didn’t replace the rings. I took the pistons out, looked at the rings, rotated the ring gaps 120deg apart, and put the pistons back in. We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I see no harm in inspecting piston rings and then putting the pistons right back. The rings didn’t change any in the 5min that each piston spent out of it’s cylinder.

Metals don’t really “crystallize”. Most metals are are fundamentally crystalline in nature from the get-go. Crystalline simply means molecularly “ordered”.

#208

ranger, won’t those re-thread the bolt holes not simply chase them?

#209

Ranger…quit trying to half ass your motor. The motor severely overheated, enough to crack the head. The reason I wanted the rings replaced is that there is about a 95% chance that they have lost tension and will not reseal because of the overheat. If that is the case, you have to rebuild the bottom end!

Put the spare motor in for CMP and rebuild the bottom end correctly and have a motor that will last a couple of years. Chuck

#210

cwbaader wrote:

[quote]Ranger…quit trying to half ass your motor. The motor severely overheated, enough to crack the head. The reason I wanted the rings replaced is that there is about a 95% chance that they have lost tension and will not reseal because of the overheat. If that is the case, you have to rebuild the bottom end!

Put the spare motor in for CMP and rebuild the bottom end correctly and have a motor that will last a couple of years. Chuck[/quote]

I’m tired of working on the motor. As long as the compression and leakdown tests are ok, I’m going to drive on. If I’m happy with it, I’ll dyno it. If I’m not happy with it, I’ll pull it after CMP and do a ring/hone.

This ring business I guess was an error on my part. I understood the re-ring to be a necessary consequence of the hone job. Once the effort to hone the block unraveled, I thought that the objective was to inspect the rings, not replace the rings. Oh well.

Everything is fixable, everything is figure-outable, but right now I need to pack up and go ski with Al.

#211

kishg wrote:

It won’t rethread them unless a person is clumsy. But a tap will attempt to cut which is certainly more aggressive then chase. You just have to be gentle about it. If the tap starts meeting a fair amount of resistance you back off and reconsider. Obviously you don’t want to cut threads, but you control the amount of force applied to the tap, so if you meet worrisom resistance you stop.

#212

Ranger
I was taught old school and it is probably wrong. Sounds like you know more about rings than I do. I would be interested in seeing a thread about the results and reliability. Maybe I can save some money in the future.

#213

rsafreno wrote:

[quote]Ranger
I was taught old school and it is probably wrong. Sounds like you know more about rings than I do. I would be interested in seeing a thread about the results and reliability. Maybe I can save some money in the future.[/quote]

Lol, with each passing month I learn over and over again that I don’t know shit.

#214

\

Everything is fixable, everything is figure-outable, but right now I need to pack up and go ski with Al.[/quote]

Finally something Ranger has said that makes sense!!
speaking of Al where in CO. is he and how long will he be out there, the wife and I are going out that way in late Feb.
have fun Ranger!

#215

I you build your engine trying to save $$$$, you will be more disappointed and spend $$$$ ten fold. Send the engine to me, be ready to spend a little $$$$ and I’ll guarantee you that will not have any excuses, ever, that you are down on power, oil leaks, I wished I would of, etc.

Racing is expensive, it’s a matter of priority.

Markus Karl M BoschB)

“Since 1977”

#216

Learned some good lessons yesterday re. leakdown tests. Doing a good test is hard, even when you think you know what you’re doing. Last year I wrote a pretty detailed write up of leakdown testing, but the test can still easily fool you.

http://www.Gress.org/Home/Cars/TrackTales/DIY/Leakdown%20DIY.htm

The problem is that a leakdown test assumes that the valves and valve seats are clean. Since I’m doing all this work outside, it’s really hard to keep everything clean. Or if you do a leakdown test on some engine with significant carbon build up, the test can indicated that the head is in awful condition when in reality maybe all it needs is for the valves and seats to be cleaned.

Yesterday I took the fabulous Chuck Baader head, put it on the car, and did some careful leakdown testing. 3 of the combustion chambers did awful. That had my eyes as wide as saucers.

Next I did a wet leakdown test by spurting some oil into the chambers. No change in results. That indicates it’s a valve problem and not a ring problem.

“Ok”, I thought, “maybe it was a mistake to put the head on myself and maybe I didn’t get it on square and I bent a valve. But there is no way that I bent 3 valves. No way. I’m missing something”.

Wantign to test my leakdown test protocol, I next did a leakdown test of my spare motor, which I’d never done before. It too did awful. “WTF?” was the sound of my backup plan evaporating

Then I looked into the valve ports on the spare motor and I could see that the valves were covered in carbon and there was even some carbon ash in the port. Mostly intake. So I thought, “maybe the heads are failing because there is crap in between the valve and the seat”?

So I took the Chuck head back off, put it on the bench, and repeated the drop test. Several of the cylinders failed miserably. Then I carefully examined the two chambers that failed worst, and sure enough there was a little debris on the vavle seat.

Using a rifle cleaning bore brush I carefully scrubbed the surfaces of the 3 problem valves and their valve seats. Then I redid the drip test and the Chuck head was as good as ever. So I put it back on to the motor.

The morale of that story is that you can only trust a leakdown test if the valves and valve seats are clean. It’s easy for a new head to get a little debris in there, and it’s easy for an old head to have carbon build up at the intake side.

#217

Ranger I think you shold go back out to Colorado, go sking and leave engine building to the professionals. REALY

#218

Brenden

I will be in Winter Park til feb 2, Vegas till Feb 8th, then down to Durango Co till 20th…

Al

#219

bdigel wrote:

Where’s the love?

Besides, I’ve had bad luck with professionals. One swiped my engine and my diff. Another did a goofed valve job that had to be redone. A third lost a rocker arm shaft retaining bar that cost me a $2k head.

Sure, it was really matter of picking the wrong professional, and some bad luck. But so far my only gross mistake was failing to tighten the bolts on the harmonic balancer and I fixed that up at the track.

How 'bout instead “gee Ranger, it’s pretty cool that you’re trying to do all this yourself”.

A person can pay for someone else to do everything or they can try to learn how to do it themselves. I like learning more then I like paying.

#220

its called tough Love Ranger! Im trying to save you from your self, you need an intervention, ! I like you ,your a kind gental soul that gives me hope for humanity, but stay away from the engines. how does one get enough dirt in a cyl head, a new fresh one at that, to keep the vavles open on not one but 3 cly.'s ???If your work space is that dirty, that is reason enough to give it up! Did you listen to chuck and replace the rings??
Oh and please don’t disparige my profession, I know you had some bad luck, but you did poor research in choosing shop’s, There are so many good shops in the ATL area its not funny. you chose a cheap shop, and got burned, If you would listen to people and you would see that there is so much talent in this town that would have spent a lot less time, money and effort and more time racing!
No you can’t get on bimmer forums and find a shop from some punk ass 17 year old who wants his m3 fixed for free, you have to talk with the old timers , the guys with more grey hair than me!
Bavarian Motorsports , Harold’s place , that guy is sharp
Munich West Does a nice Job
Buckhead Motor works Tony B , Knows more about racing e 30s than Chuck does
Buckhead Imports , Jason, is super sharp
Quatum Mechanchanic’s, Ex crew member for Tafel
Juston poole ,
I could go onand on , i haven’t even listed my place

keep entertaining us