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High zinc content is the most recent controversy around racing oil, someone told me the other day (I’m not an expert either, but this guy seemed to be). I have used Valvoline VR-1 racing oil. It has added zinc. I used Redline the last couple of weekends and I was disappointed with the condition of the oil after just a few races. I think I’m going to switch back to the VR-1 next oil change.
John
Re. VR-1. Consider taking a look at the high temp visc, high temp shear, 4 ball bearing test, ZDDP and moly #'s before going from one oil to another. I’m not expert either, but I took notes from lots of reading at BobIsTheOilGuy.com.
Re. oil pressure and the regs. I just got off of the phone with a custom oil pan builder that runs an outfit named Charlie’s Oilpans. No website. I had sent him diagrams and pictures of our oil pans. He said:
We would be very surprised if we knew just how energetically the oil is flying around inside of the pan. It sloshes aggressively everywhere. Because of this we should assume that the oil pickup becomes briefly uncovered frequently. Abrupt driver steering or braking inputs can uncover the pickup.
Any baffle that is created has to seal tightly because the oil will just spray out unsealed seams.
We should be concerned about the large shallow area in the rear of the pan. Any action that sloshes oil rearward will practically empty the sump for a second or two. Examples that come to mind are hitting a gator under acceleration, braking hard while backwards…say at CMP turn 8 last weekend.
We should be concerned about oil returning from the cam area back down to our sump quickly enough.
He wasn’t optimistic about us finding someone who could put in a swinging pickup or dual pickup. He said that it was a lot easier to put that sort of thing in a dry sump then a wet sump.
It’s bearing suicide to track our motor without a crankscraper.
He said we’d get better bang for our buck with an Accusump type device then with additional oil pan baffling. Baffling helps, he said, but the picture he painted of what’s going on in the oilpan was of oil flying everywhere, and that there was just a limit as to what could be acheived with a baffle.
Ranger wrote:
The skeptic in me thinks this guys is trying to sell an oil pan, not solve a problem.
Basic physics dictates that even at 1g acceleration (possible only in Geegar’s car) or 1g cornering, the top surface of the pool of oil in the pan would tilt to a 45 deg angle. My hypothesis: Our cars are incapable of producing the force required to lift all that oil from the bottom of the pan and force it to the “rear shelf” of the oil pan to achieve starvation.
Gasman wrote:
I, for one, have learned a lot from Ranger’s various exploits. He clearly is no factory-trained mechanic. But I don’t see too many of those guys investigating E30 M20B25 race car issues and/or posting here (or elsewhere). So I enjoy Ranger’s posts. When I disagree or don’t understand, I post. He may not know much, but he knows a hell of a lot more than I do. He may be the purveyor of incomplete, inaccurate information, but he is completely willing to put his experiments out there for all to see. I respect that.
I personally feel like the more I learn about these cars, the more I know I don’t know.
Steve D.
PS - Other than a crank scraper, I am not sure there is anything to be done to the pan to reduce starvation. If there were a pan that would help, Korman would sell it, right?
You guys are not listening. My pan has four ledges surrounding the oil pump…oil cannot go up the sides of the pan, front or rear. It also has extended capacity on both sides so the oil in the pan always surrounds the pickup.
A side note. Per TracMate, my car pulls 1.5Gs in turn 3 at Roebling. How much oil do you think stays in the stock pan, windage tray be dammed, under those conditions…hint (very little). (Imagine the 45 degree angle of a 1G turn going unrestricted up the side of an inclined motor)
We really need to get someone to develop this pan for the good of all. Chuck
Steve D wrote:
You are thinking steady state instead of the very dynamic environment of the oil pan. Oil has inertia and is subject to “impulse” which is short duration high g loads. All it takes, so the guy was saying, is a sudden driver input and you get a major slosh of oil in whatever direction. Sit in a passenger seat with a big bowl of water and hit a big bump. See if the bowl doesn’t empty itself all over the passenger compartment.
I didn’t get the impression that the Charlie guy was trying to sell me an oilpan. He seemed to be telling me that although he could build an oil pan that would help, I’d get better bang for my buck with an Accusump.
Having said that, I think that Chuck (Baader) is on to something useful and he needs to start making oil pans.
Thanks for the support but Steve (Foushee) is right. I always sound like I know what I’m talking about. But reading a lot isn’t the same as knowing a lot.
cwbaader wrote:
While being jealous of my driving talent and projecting it squarely on my motor, DeVinney was talking about 1 G under acceleration, not cornering…
Edit: Just re-read DeVinney’s post. Nevermind. He’s lacking in both areas. Isn’t that what she said?
I regularly see spike of 1.2 lateral on my traqmate, close to the same under braking as well.
Accleration not so much…
IndyJim wrote:
[quote]I regularly see spike of 1.2 lateral on my traqmate, close to the same under braking as well.
Accleration not so much…[/quote]
I see 1.3g lateral often enough, but not at RR3. Near as I can figure I’ve got some rear lift going on at high speeds such that if I take RR3 at 100mph I’m drifting with some opposite lock.
Ranger…is that not how you are supposed to take RR3?
Least y’all forget, I’m running Kumho 710s so my g-loads will be larger. Chuck
Unless someone can chime in with data logger traces of oil pressure under track conditions, talk of oil starvation while cornering when a properly fitted crank scraper is used seems a bit premature to me. I’m not saying that it can’t/doesn’t happen, only that it is conjecture unless you have data.
BTW: It has been a while since I dug through the site, but if memory serves Metric Mechanic uses a baffled oil pan (and windage tray) on their high output M20 engines. That might be a possible source for a baffled oil pan.
jlevie wrote:
[quote]Unless someone can chime in with data logger traces of oil pressure under track conditions, talk of oil starvation while cornering when a properly fitted crank scraper is used seems a bit premature to me. I’m not saying that it can’t/doesn’t happen, only that it is conjecture unless you have data.
BTW: It has been a while since I dug through the site, but if memory serves Metric Mechanic uses a baffled oil pan (and windage tray) on their high output M20 engines. That might be a possible source for a baffled oil pan.[/quote]
Once I get all my new sensors, gauges, oil cooler and accusump in, I might connect a gauge output to my Traqmate. But that’s going to have to wait it’s turn in the heirarchy of car projects.
If we are going to rigorously study oil pressure behavior we’re going to have to get an idea of the response time of the system. For example, when the oil pump starts sucking air, how much time elapses before the oil pressure drops at the main bearings? It’s certainly not instantaneous, the oil first goes thru the filter and oil cooler.
Therefore the timing, severity and duration of oil pressure drops felt by the sensor (as reported by Traqmate) won’t exactly track those felt at the bearings. Sounds like a good question for the boys at Corner Carvers.
I talked to Metric Mechanic about the whole oiling thing. They’re a big believer in their various oil system mods which include oil pan baffling. They are not a big fan of the Accusump. Stated another way, they like what they are familiar with and they like what they sell.
They wanted $750 for their baffled oil pan.
Just offering my services for Custom Oil Pans, -If we get a design we like, I can find a few people to build them. This is what is do for a living. I source Vendors(service providers) for large companies on a global scale.
Ranger wrote:
[quote]jlevie wrote:
[quote]Unless someone can chime in with data logger traces of oil pressure under track conditions, talk of oil starvation while cornering when a properly fitted crank scraper is used seems a bit premature to me. I’m not saying that it can’t/doesn’t happen, only that it is conjecture unless you have data.
BTW: It has been a while since I dug through the site, but if memory serves Metric Mechanic uses a baffled oil pan (and windage tray) on their high output M20 engines. That might be a possible source for a baffled oil pan.[/quote]
Once I get all my new sensors, gauges, oil cooler and accusump in, I might connect a gauge output to my Traqmate. But that’s going to have to wait it’s turn in the heirarchy of car projects.
If we are going to rigorously study oil pressure behavior we’re going to have to get an idea of the response time of the system. For example, when the oil pump starts sucking air, how much time elapses before the oil pressure drops at the main bearings? It’s certainly not instantaneous, the oil first goes thru the filter and oil cooler.
Therefore the timing, severity and duration of oil pressure drops felt by the sensor (as reported by Traqmate) won’t exactly track those felt at the bearings. Sounds like a good question for the boys at Corner Carvers.
I talked to Metric Mechanic about the whole oiling thing. They’re a big believer in their various oil system mods which include oil pan baffling. They are not a big fan of the Accusump. Stated another way, they like what they are familiar with and they like what they sell.
They wanted $750 for their baffled oil pan.[/quote]
The oil pressure sensor looks at the distribution gallery, so if you see a drop in pressure there the bearings are seeing the same drop in pressure. With regard to data logging, you need to use a sensor that has a fast response time. In my experience most electrical automotive pressure sensors have a pretty slow response time and part of that is due to the small hole in the pressure sensor.
Jim, et al…I use a -4AN line to my gauge…instantaneous readings. Agree that the sensors (electric) may be slower but the data ack will show the peaks and valleys, just maybe not in real time (somewhat delayed).
Dan, I have a sketch drawn for a pan which should be good enough for a quote. If you want to pursue, email me directly cwbaader@centurytel.net and I’ll send you a copy. Chuck
Ranger wrote:
[quote]Amsoil has vy high ZDDP (>1300ppm) out of the bottle. Redline (>1200ppm) is about halfway between Amsoil and mass market oils (900-1100ppm). But Redline also sells a break-in additive that is primarily a bottle of ZDDP.
Either way ought to be ok, near as I’ve read.
I don’t know that I’d run Amsoil in anything with a cat tho.[/quote]
I have been running Amsoil High ZDDP oils in my street cars for years and have never had a cat problem. The issue with cat degradation is only an issue if the car has higher than normal blow by (say burning more than 1 qt per 500 miles). Otherwise, very very little oil residue gets in to the exhaust.
Relative to additives, more is not necessarily better. Balance is what is important. That is why I choose to run a product that is blended by experts.
Don