Oil pressure issues and the Regs

#61

Hot Idle was 5-7psi before letting go. 5k rpm was at 50psi on the first few runs. The tell tell sign for me was when the oil pressure at 30psi at 5k. After this your lucky to get back to the pits before the oil pressure dropping to 0.

#62

Triple post. For god’s sake what’s going on with the site?

#63

Double post

#64

Steve D wrote:

[quote]Ranger wrote:

[quote]But we don’t need to establish a common causality thread in order to accept the idea that there is a problem.
[/quote]

There are problems. However, we DO need to establish common causality to accept the idea there is A problem. One of the ways to make racing even more expensive is to throw parts at a poorly-defined problem.

I would argue that permitting non-factory bearing grooves, allowing remote filters and plumbing, and implying that an accusump is necessary will NOT NECESSARILY decrease the incidence of failures and WILL increase the perceived cost to build a competitive car.

Steve D.[/quote]

Re. causality. I’m not saying that we should not bother to attempt to understand precisely why our bearings fail. Sorry about the double negative. What I’m saying is that “ok, we don’t totally understand what’ going on, but lets try some logical things that might help”. Said another way, our lack of perfect understanding shouldn’t be a barrier.

I’m all for attempting to better understand what is going on. But if we waited for a perfect understanding of chicks before we got the gumption to just try something and see what happened, we’d a all died of unsightly sperm build up by age 19.

Re. increasing the percieved cost of the series. I love ya man, but that’s BS. We should be allowed non-performance mods to help ruggedize the weakpoints of our cars. Shock tower reinforcements, swaybar mount reinforcements and subframe reinforcement precidents all come to mind.

One guy chooses to add another qt of oil because he perceives that to protect his motor. How is that different in spirit from an Accusump?

Another guy chooses to put in an oil pressure gauge to monitor same. Who, when sizing up the price of our series would think to themself, “hmm, I need to budget for remoting my oil filter because I perceive that as a must-do”.

In fact SteveD, you are a walking poster child for creating bad perceptions on the cost of our series. Your car is so damn nice that every time I see it I start spending more money. I’m currently redoing my gauges and warning lights because your car gave me some good ideas.

#65

There IS a solution. It involves the IJ crank scraper and a custom oil pan.

The above will be cheap when compared to a motor rebuild. There is no reason a motor should not last several seasons if it does not starve for oil. This should be addressed quickly to allow for development and construction time. Chuck

#66

no crank scraper.

And no plasti-gauge. I use micrometers. Clearance was within spec, on the loose side.

#67

Steve D wrote:

[quote]I’m not saying there CAN’T be a problem, but I would like to see the number of bearing-related engine failures that tick all the boxes:

  • under 200,000 miles
  • crank scraper trimmed and installed per instructions (no debris)
  • oil pump replaced
  • heavier oil in older motors
  • oil temp and pressure gauges installed and monitored
  • engine assembled by the factory or an experienced shop
  • SE30 legal motor mounts
  • fresh guibo/vibration damper thingies
  • oil level between marks on dipstick
  • oil level checked each session
  • new flywheel bolts (if removed and reinstalled)

[/quote]

I can’t check the following boxes… oil temp gauge, scraper, motor mounts (BS…not causing bearing failures), or flywheel bolts (also BS).

I’ve run solid motor mounts on huge power cars before…no bearing issues. If something is out of balance within the rotating assembly ENOUGH to cause bearing failure, then no [realistic] amount of rubber dampening on the outside of the block is going to save it.

Clevite has a great PDF (similar pictures can be found in any car manual) of different types of bearing failure, weather it be excessive clearance, bent or out of round crankshaft, oil starvation, or contamination, etc…

looking at those, I can confidently say that my cause of failure was oil starvation. And my engine machine shop agrees.

Let me also add that I know a few cars with unknown mileage engines, and no crank scrapers that are still alive and well. It’s odd…

#68

cwbaader wrote:

[quote]There IS a solution. It involves the IJ crank scraper and a custom oil pan.

The above will be cheap when compared to a motor rebuild. There is no reason a motor should not last several seasons if it does not starve for oil. This should be addressed quickly to allow for development and construction time. Chuck[/quote]

I agree that oil pans should be free as long as we stay wet sump and all oil pan mods are restricted to measures that keep the oil pickup submerged. We should add that to the list.

Anyone know anything about dual pickups?

#69

Ranger wrote:

[quote]Good points.
Good point re. ZDDP. I did a bunch of research on oil last year. I learned that everything I thought I knew was wrong. It’s silly to choose an oil based only on it’s xxWxx manuf viscosity labeling. That’s a good reason to go with Redline oils. As I recall they aren’t API certified and therefore aren’t attempting to follow the emission controls requirements that mandate lower ZDDP.

I think that AMSOIL runs higher ZDDP too.
[/quote]

A guy in the oil industry who races recommended Valvoline VR1 oil to me because of high ZDDP and low cost.

Are you guys who are seeing failures experiencing higher than desired oil temps?

#70

wstukas wrote:

You can call it BS, but I think that is a little rude. I assumed you would put in a crank scraper. Seems like a simple cheap solution. As for motor mounts, flywheel bolts, etc., I am simply trying to find a common cause for these problems.

Is that true for the M20 (assuming it is more sensitive to oil starvation than your “huge power” engine)?

I linked to that PDF above.

…or maybe it’s evidence that this problem is not that pervasive.

Steve D.

#71

Ranger wrote:

I completely agree. :slight_smile: I just think we can get to a better understanding by applying some Ockham’s Razor to this problem. My argument is that if you run a 150,000-mile-plus engine of unknown history (like I do), then run a frickin’ crank scraper, 20w50 oil between the factory marks on the dipstick, use your gauges, and 99.9% of the problems disappear.

TMI

An Accusump is legal. The extra quart of oil? It may make that guy feel better because he thinks he has done something to address the starvation, but there is a reason there is a “high” mark on the dipstick. I don’t know if running a quart high in an M20 will foam the oil, but that cure may be worse than the disease.

I am not arguing against the remote filter/accusump setup. I think it is smart insurance. I am arguing against your original “oiling system is free” proposal.

I am here to help. :wink:

Steve D.

#72

wstukas wrote:

As you have already pointed out, I don’t know $hit about the current topic, but for my education…

Wouldn’t you want the clearance tight on an engine with “known” oil starvation/pressure issues?

Steve D.

#73

Ranger wrote:

[quote]
I agree that oil pans should be free.[/quote]

9.3.1.6.5. Oil pans, pan baffles, scrapers, windage trays, and oil pickups are unrestricted.

#74

Elephant4 wrote:

[quote]Ranger wrote:

[quote]
I agree that oil pans should be free.[/quote]

9.3.1.6.5. Oil pans, pan baffles, scrapers, windage trays, and oil pickups are unrestricted.[/quote]

Shit, I missed the fact that “oil pans” were in that sentance. Chuck Baader, drive on with your super pan and start selling those bad boys. I bet that turns out to be big help.

Steve,
Re. “I just think we can get to a better understanding by applying some Ockham’s Razor to this problem”. I salute you for your “find the simplest explanation” arguement, even if it identifies you as a fellow nerd. I’d always used the “Occam” spelling and didn’t even know that there was an alternate spelling.

For general consumption: I wouldn’t say that bearing failure is pervasive. But it certainly seems like there is enough anecdotal reports about it that there is a problem. If the probability that a junkyard motor’s bearings, with crankscraper and 20W50 1qt high, will make it 2 seasons is only 50% (I pulled that # out of my butt), then is it a problem? Not everyone is going to agree.

But as Elephant4 pointed out, much of our oil system is free. If we’re not using pan baffles, dual oil pickups and accusumps that the rules allow, that’s on us. I still want the remote oil filter, coated bearings and 360deg groove in main caps tho.

#75

Let’s look at the root of the problem: Our motors are canted to the right some 30 degrees. So in a left hand corner there is an excellent ramp for the oil to travel up the right side of the block. Now, to fool mother nature, we add a crank scraper that blocks some of that oil form running up the side of the block…this helps. In addition, running an extra quart of oil will also help. (The oil level still stays well below the crankshaft, probably 2 1/2". The best solution is a trap door pan of larger capacity. The pan I did holds approximately 7 quarts, has shelves to prevent oil from going up the side of the motor, and has extra enough extra capacity such that when oil goes to one side of the pan there is enough reserve on the other to feed the oil pump. Mine is a “T” sump pan and there is certainly enough room to create an even larger capacity pan under the e30.

There are also a couple of tricks I do when building a motor concerning the oil pump and the pressure relief valve.

The best advice I can give is to get an Oberg type filter on the car with an 11’ X 11’ oil cooler. Ron at Discovery has these parts at good prices for those who want to be safe. I will check on having my pan duplicated/copied as soon as possible. Chuck

#76

Steve D wrote:

[quote]wstukas wrote:

As you have already pointed out, I don’t know $hit about the current topic, but for my education…

Wouldn’t you want the clearance tight on an engine with “known” oil starvation/pressure issues?

Steve D.[/quote]

I never said that. You have made some extremely valid points. Sorry if I come off a bit harsh…

My clearance was right at 0.002" between main journals and bearings. Touch on the loose side, but well within range. And you’re correct, tighter tolerances will help maintain oil pressure, if there is a pressure problem. I’m not sure that logic really applies here though; once the sump sucks air, the film of oil quickly deteriorates regardless of clearances.

I would not be surprised if I had more than one, unrelated issue with bearings. Especially considering the only motor that had an oil pressure gauge was the last one. But…I think we can all agree a crank scraper is a must, and the addition of an Accusump is just cheap insurance. I don’t want to be needing motor number 6 next month…

#77

Just finished installing my “new” motor. It is supposed to an extremely low mileage shortblock with a “NEW” factory head. The oil pump looked terrible (so much for extremely low mileage) so I replaced it with a low mileage spare and installed a crank scraper. the initial cold oil pressure was more than my other 2 motors (70), and hot pressure at idle is in the 30’s. So far so good.

I am going to run the car 200 miles on the street and change oil then run it easy on the track this weekend. NAPA has there full synthetic at $3 a qt so I bought some 15/50 and some of their Lucas type addittive, is there a specific Zinc additive out there I need to look for?

Hopefully this motor will last at least this year…

Al

#78

Amsoil has vy high ZDDP (>1300ppm) out of the bottle. Redline (>1200ppm) is about halfway between Amsoil and mass market oils (900-1100ppm). But Redline also sells a break-in additive that is primarily a bottle of ZDDP.

Either way ought to be ok, near as I’ve read.

I don’t know that I’d run Amsoil in anything with a cat tho.

#79

Scott, please don’t take this the wrong way, I don’t mean this to be offensive in any way. Is it possible that you think you have learned more about mechanical issues than you have actually learned? Recently, you have been mentored quite a bit by very capable mechanics, but does this mean you have become one? It takes years of experience to become a good mechanic. Give it time, you will get there my friend.

#80

Gasman wrote:

I don’t really know shit because experience counts for 90%. But I do read a lot. And being a mechanical engineer helps with the basics.

My natural inclination is to help where I can. If you see me put out bad scoop, by all means correct me. That way I’ll get the good scoop too.

I was reading up on ZDDP just the other day. No normal person would be able to pull those #'s off of the top of their head. But I was putting those #'s into my oil spreadsheet last night, so I remembered.