New to HPDEs, questions about time and cost

#1

Hi guys,

I’ve been lurking for a bit here and all of this seems very interesting. I have some autocross experience with SCCA and BMWCCA, but haven’t even done any track days. I was looking at the cost breakdown of at least 10K for the car alone and it was a little sobering. Additionally, there is a lot of safety stuff I didn’t really expect (like HANS).

What I want to do now is get my 325is HPDE ready and slowly build it up as I go through the steps to SpecE30. I imagine this will take a year at least.

I just ordered H&R Race and Bilstein sport with Ireland SpecE30 camber plates and 95 M3 solid rubber LCAB.

I’m also going to do hoses and standard maintenence, RSMs and brakes before my first event, with control arms, tie rods, bushings, and sways fairly soon. I don’t want to go nuts at the moment as I don’t have a tow vehicle or trailer and can’t take too many risks.

Some questions:

  1. What is a very rough average how many EVENTS it takes to go up a class (HPDE 1 to HPDE 2/3, for example)? How many events before license test for racing?

  2. What work NEEDS to happen before the first HPDE (with the car being streetable)?

  3. Is this a good plan, to simply start cheap and safe, and go on through the HPDEs to SpecE30?

  4. A bit OT :), what is a good rattlecan / paint pen color for Zinnoberrot Red?

Any other advice or insight is appreciated, thanks!

#2

First. If you don’t have ANY track experience, you should plan for at least TWO years of HPDE’s until you get your provisional comp license. It took me two long years to feel comfortable in a racing-like environment, like HPDE group four, and TT’s.
You need to replace all rubber parts, and upgrade if you can.
Replace the most common breakable items, ie water pump, alternator, etc. Find/prevent leaks, replace gaskets and ALL fluids. Tune-up is a must. Then start upgrading the suspension. First replace worn out parts, tie-rods and similar. Then move to tranny and diff.
Get a roll bar first that you can upgrade to a full cage later on. Good helmet, seat and harness.
And most important, seat time.
Welcome and enjoy!!

#3

Agree with Beto, and would add that the track showed me how inadequate my street brakes were real fast and that might be something to look at early on. Suggest good compound pads and maybe some ATE or Motul fluid. If you have warped or worn out rotors take care of those too.

Have fun

#4

in addition to the good prior advice, let the HPDE organizers or comp school director know that you’re aiming for racing and they can suggest things along the way to move up faster (if you’re showing aptitude). Ask lots of questions, link up with local racers, help out as crew, etc. to get the feel for race environment faster. Focus on developing your situational awareness on track.

Check out the book at http://www.goaheadtakethewheel.com/ Lots of good advice in it.

cheers,
bruce

#5

just a little bit of something.
http://www.ioportracing.com/faq/makeUfaster.htm

I agree with Bruce you have to let the group leader know of your intentions early on. This will be the only time in preparation for racing you will ever not be in a rush.
For you = practice the line, practice the line, practice the line. there are three types of HPDEers out there in my opinion.

  1. The Track junky / HPDE for ever
    Wreckless, show off, just wants to go fast, don’t get caught up racing them. you will be suprised later how much they don’t know how to drive.
  2. The TTer
    Awesome drivers in street cars = street racers by day TTers by weekend, give them all the room they want. It will prepare you for the faster groups you will be running with in the future.
  3. The racer in training
    The ones with topics brought up in the down load meetings, the ones not spinning out all the time, the ones at the track when its raining. Help em, talk to em, respect em on the track. You will meet agian.

In HPDE you have endless amounts of time to spend working on your driving skills.
Once you are racing that must and i say must be second nature!

I started with a parade lap in the backseat of a car at Infineon as my experience.
Bought a car and drove thru group 1 to license in 1 year. Granted i hit every event for that year, mid weeks included.
I slowly built my car up with something added at every event until now.

Good luck.
Hope to rub fenders with you someday soon.

Motormuncher
#804

#6

pyro wrote:

[quote]What I want to do now is get my 325is HPDE ready and slowly build it up as I go through the steps to SpecE30. I imagine this will take a year at least.

  1. What is a very rough average how many EVENTS it takes to go up a class (HPDE 1 to HPDE 2/3, for example)? How many events before license test for racing?

  2. What work NEEDS to happen before the first HPDE (with the car being streetable)?

  3. Is this a good plan, to simply start cheap and safe, and go on through the HPDEs to SpecE30?
    [/quote]

Pyro,

I have taken interest in your post because we have a few things in common. That is desire to go racing but not enough funds to jump in with a track only car, trailer, tow vehicle and some of the other tools that a lot of guys here already have.

I think your plan looks pretty good and I think that you have received some good advice here. The best advice I have seen is get as much track time as you can. While the car needs some prep work to be safe (baiscally maintenance items) your first priority has to be developing your skills so that you are ready to compete. In addition to NASA HPDE look to any other club you can find (BMWCCA, PCA, PBOC, Chin, Track Quest) that might offer track days in your area and participate in as many as you can. You have got to be sure that you have the skills to go racing before you spend a fortune on the car.

As to how many track days do you need, it depends on your skill level and your ability to learn. Some guys are ready after only a few events. Others can take years of development before they are ready to race. The bottom line is seat time, seat time, and seat time are the three most important things you need. While wheel to wheel racing is a blast, you will also have a great deal of fun climbing the ladder through the HPDE events.

Best of luck,

Don

#7

Pyro,

I am basically in the same boat you are in, though maybe a little further along. I have done a couple of HPDE’s and have hopes to be racing in a year. But, like several have mentioned here, it all depends on how much seat time I get between now and then. I have gotten my car about 1/2 ready for SpecE30 but have come to realize the best use of funds at this point are driving events to gain sat time. Good luck. Maybe we will be qualifying together sometime soon.

Andy

#8

I am in the same boat as well. I did 5 hpde events last year, and I plan on building the car slowly as I move up the ranks. The other guys gave you some good ideas. I would also replace the timing belt, and switch to redline in the diff and tranny. When making upgrades make sure to check the rules to make sure you don’t have to redo something. When I first got my car I put in shocks and springs, but not the spec e30 stuff. So thats one thing I will have to redo
:pinch: But they will have to get me through my hpde events, then thats why god created ebay.

also I would upgrade the motor mounts before your first event or you will end up spewing radiator fluid all over the place when your stock mounts break, and your p/S pully cuts your lower radiator hose ask me how I know:pinch:

Good luck and have fun

#9

Very good advice from all I think. Advancement thru the HPDE ranks will also depend on frequency of events. If you do 1 HPDE per year, it’ll take awhile to move up. Seems like 3-5 per year, depending on your budget, and marriage, will move you up at a respectable pace. As far as the paint pen, if it’s gonna end up being a race car, I’d try Krylon or Rustoleum, or maybe a Sharpie. :blink: Bob C.

#10

To add some details and answer Pyro’s questions about time and $$ spent in HPDE groups…(based on my experience)…usually Group 1 would be your first two day weekend where you’ll have an instructor in the car with you teaching you the basics (driving line, braking points etc). After your weekend in Group 1 you should be good-to-go in Group 2. I think the previous posts are realistic…for your racing license plan on spending at least a year (8 to 10 full weekends) working your way up the HPDE ladder. I’d say 2 full weekends in Group 2 then you’d probably be ready for Group 3. Group 3 maybe another 2 to 3 weekends before getting into Group 4. Group 4 allows full course passing whereas the lower groups have limited passing. NASA controls Group 4 in that they don’t want anyone driving 10:10ths; more like 70-80% of racing speed. Keep in mind in Group 4 you’ll be mixed in with a wide variety of cars…some very fast street cars along with full prep race cars. My experience is that you need to get comfortable in a full-course passing track environment before you think about testing for your comp license. Use in-car video or a track lap timer (like Hot Lap) to keep track of your lap times and, as you progress in Group 4, compare your lap times to the SpecE30 race group. When you start getting near or even comparable lap times to the race group and if you feel comfortable in Group 4 traffic then you’ll know your ready to test for your license. The racing environment will be a whole other intensity level than Group 4. NASA’s rookie period is a good one because, if you’re like me, it will take at least 6 races to begin to get comfortable in the balls-out racing environment.

Take advantage of your instructors…ask lots of questions and do ride-a-longs with instructors or while you’re in Group 2 or 3 hitch rides with Group 4 participants. You should be able to shorten the learning curve by riding with experienced drivers.

NASA’s HPDE program is kind of like a payment plan to getting a racing license whereas you could pay to go to a Skip Barber or Jim Russell school; but those are, last time I looked, in the $3K to $5K range for a week or so of schooling. Passing a course like one of these will also allow you to get a NASA rookie permit. For NASA’s program for a full weekend you’re looking at $249 in fees plus gas, travel, lodging etc…so say $400 per weekend. Eight full weekends equals about $3200.

Good luck and welcome to the addiction!

Scott Neville
NASA NorCal
Former GTI-Cup now building a SpecE30

#11

Thanks, Scott. That’s a great post!

#12

Pyro,

You didn’t say what region you are in but The Mid Atlantic region differs slightly from the Norcal region in the process. In MA, HPDE3 is the advanced group with passing anywhere with a point, so…If you are in or region, plan on being in HPDE1 for at least 2 weekends, maybe 3, then moving to HPDE2 for at least 2 more weekends,possibly more depending on your progress. I recommend staying in HPDE2 for a while so you get the benefit of an Instructor. In MA, there are no Instructors assigned in HPDE3. Our HPDE4 IS the Instructor group.One thing is that you can SOLO in HPDE2 with approval. You can have the instructor on Sat. and ask to be Solo’d on Sunday. That way if you are at a new track or just want to get the input of a different instructor you can.