New engine hp cap rule

#21

One reason SoCal isn’t sending more people to nationals is because we’re down on car count, since so many cars got destroyed at Laguna.

#22

Rob,
I saw your post before it was deleted…oooops, I mean edited…Hear’s an idea…You come up with a way to fund the travel cost from Miller to your special event & I will bring The Vert.

#23

Just plain sad for all those involved in the carnage at Laguna, it could have been avoided…
Here is an idea, you guys pool your resources and send out your 2 best drivers & cars to Miller.

#24

I wonder if a case could be made to split up Nationals. Something like a W. Coast event in NorCal and an E. Coast event at VIR, Mid-O, WG. If NASA felt that economically it was advantageous, I imagine they’d go for it.

Ok, so we don’t end up with a true national champion, but so what. The event you go to is a lot more fun than the event you don’t go to.

How have car counts been at Miller vs. Mid-O?

#25

I think mid-o last year was going to start with 30+ cars before the “incident.” I think we actually started with like 24-26 cars.

More drivers would probably show up if there was a tow fund…

#26

[quote=“Foglght” post=73571]I think mid-o last year was going to start with 30+ cars before the “incident.” I think we actually started with like 24-26 cars.

More drivers would probably show up if there was a tow fund…[/quote]
This isn’t a SpecE30 issue, it’s a NASA issue. If attendance is fine at Miller, yet not a single SpecE30 shows up, NASA will see it as a win. As they should. There’s nothing special about our money.

Sure, we’re special. Our wives, girlfriends, children, even our dogs are special. But our money is just plain money.

#27

The thread is getting off topic… but the best thing that could be done to improve nationals turnout is to use a race track that is located closer to the center of the country. It doesn’t matter how much of a “tow fund” there is… I’m not going to drive all the way from the east coast to Utah. Vacations days are worth more than just money.

But I’m sure that discussion has been beat to death before.

#28

NASA could do this pretty rigorously. Create a poll that asked people their zip code and how far they’d tow to go to Nationals. Then NASA could take a hard look at how to optimize profit. Maybe the current scheme. Maybe 1 central Nats, Maybe 2 regional Nats, maybe something that has not been considered. As long as reality was reflected in people’s answers, the optimum business model should be easy enough to arrive at.

#29

[quote=“Steve Ferrario” post=73547]

It has now been two weeks since the HP limit was announced. The discounted registration has been extended, Thanks to Walter Fords(Pointsix) generosity to encourage more spece30 & yet still NO new spec e30 drivers have registered. I know of a few drivers on the fence that would register, however, their motors also exceed the new limit.
So I am just wondering why none of the SoCal contingent with the shortest drive to Miller havent signed up except for Mark Powell. Mark purchased my last car this past Feb & the motor was producing 164hp.
C’mon So Cal…Sign up, you now have a fair chance against the BIG NORCAL MOTORS.[/quote]

I dont know why you think that somehow Miller is a closer tow from SoCal than the Norcal group. Its a 12hr tow for most of us to Miller. Its cost prohibitive. Prior to the Laguna event, there was discussion of, “go to Laguna or go to Miller”. Most of the SoCal guys cant afford to do both and since Laguna was much cheaper to do, thats where the entire SoCal group went. We suffered 4 car casualties, only one was replaced in time for our lest event at AAA Speedway. The rest are still currently being fixed or replaced. Perhaps if they all had your budget, they would all be signed up for Miller too.

I dyno’d Marks car at AAA Speedway and it made legal power numbers.

Ranger - NASA will NEVER do a separate championship event. EVER. Wont happen. You either go to where they have the event, or dont go. Those are the options.

#30

[quote=“SurferShawn” post=73581]

Ranger - NASA will NEVER do a separate championship event. EVER. Wont happen. You either go to where they have the event, or dont go. Those are the options.[/quote]
Strong words.

I figure NASA will do whatever seems most profitable and whatever seems to make it’s customer-base happiest. Often the two have lots of parallels.

Maybe NASA has a sharp business intelligence type that explores the profitability of different schemes. Or maybe the NASA senior leaders have family in Utah that they like to visit. At our level it’s just guesswork.

One thing’s for sure tho, if a person feels strongly about an issue, they need to let their chain of command know. No ones reading minds.

People on the E. Coast have been bitching about having Nats at Miller since the beginning. But as long as enough people show up at Miller and race, NASA has no reason to change it. If a person wants change they need to be ready to show NASA that more $$ can be made doing something different.

2014 NASA Nationals…Roebling Road, Savannah, GA.

#31

[quote=“Ranger” post=73582]
Strong words.

I figure NASA will do whatever seems most profitable and whatever seems to make it’s customer-base happiest. Often the two have lots of parallels.

Maybe NASA has a sharp business intelligence type that explores the profitability of different schemes. Or maybe the NASA senior leaders have family in Utah that they like to visit. At our level it’s just guesswork.

One thing’s for sure tho, if a person feels strongly about an issue, they need to let their chain of command know. No ones reading minds.

People on the E. Coast have been bitching about having Nats at Miller since the beginning. But as long as enough people show up at Miller and race, NASA has no reason to change it. If a person wants change they need to be ready to show NASA that more $$ can be made doing something different.

2014 NASA Nationals…Roebling Road, Savannah, GA.[/quote]

Strong words because ive tried it. Ended up with a watered down version called the “California Crown”. Maybe you heard of it? I wasnt allowed to call it a championship event, of any kind. But the goal was to bring on sponsors and give out cash awards to the top SE30 finishers from the west coast to help them better afford to attend Mid-O and represent the west coast. Thats what we did. Nothing is keeping anyone from the east coast from doing a similar event. NASA will never give out a TOW fund. if you want to make something happen, then you have to do it yourself. Organize eith your regional director and make it happen. if I can do it, then hell…

Im all for the championships being held in different locations to allow those who cant otherwise afford to attend a National Championship. There are alot of GREAT tracks all over the nation. Alas, there is a lot more into doing a Champ event than just saying, hey, I like Miller, lets do it there. For the first 4 years the champs were held at Mid-O and the west coast guys complained that they couldn’t afford to attend. Many did, but many more couldn’t. It got moved to Miller and the majority were from the west coast. Now the east coast peeps couldn’t afford it. Its a back and forth. Was at Mid-O for the last 2 years, will be at Miller this year and next years official location announcement will be made at Miller.

Poor guys in Florida get screwed every year. no matter where it is, its FAR for them. LOL!!

#32

Guys,
Getting off topic just a bit…Weren’t we talking about the 155hp rule not debating where the Nationals should be held each year. I think that anyone who has been around spec e30 long enough has seen that if the Nats are held closer to the east coast, the West doesn’t show & the opposite if held out West. The nats have never been a true sampling of the best from each coast & the middle. Just how it goes.

Back to the HP discussion. Sean, Mark told me his car got dyno’d at Fontana, the numbers he shared with me seemed surprisingly low since I know the motor & the numbers it produced last July & August…Unless he has done something to damage his motor or detune, then his numbers could very well represent the inconsistency we are going to see with this new HP rule if ALL cars are not dyno’d at the same time on the same dyno…
Worse yet, Mark goes to Miller thinking he has a car that falls within the rule, doesn’t bring extra ballast with him & is scrambling when gets dyno’d at Miller & his car is producing 162+hp. If Mark attends, I would highly suggest he bring ballast. I don’t see that motor being down 9hp.

#33

[quote=“Ranger” post=73582][quote=“SurferShawn” post=73581]

Ranger - NASA will NEVER do a separate championship event. EVER. Wont happen. You either go to where they have the event, or dont go. Those are the options.[/quote]
Strong words.

I figure NASA will do whatever seems most profitable and whatever seems to make it’s customer-base happiest. Often the two have lots of parallels.

Maybe NASA has a sharp business intelligence type that explores the profitability of different schemes. Or maybe the NASA senior leaders have family in Utah that they like to visit. At our level it’s just guesswork.

One thing’s for sure tho, if a person feels strongly about an issue, they need to let their chain of command know. No ones reading minds.

People on the E. Coast have been bitching about having Nats at Miller since the beginning. But as long as enough people show up at Miller and race, NASA has no reason to change it. If a person wants change they need to be ready to show NASA that more $$ can be made doing something different.

2014 NASA Nationals…Roebling Road, Savannah, GA.[/quote]

“and whatever seems to make it’s customer-base happiest.” --really! Are we?

#34

Hey Steve, sorry to hear about the poor handling of the HP cap rule. I can understand where they are comming from but it was poorly implemented.
It obvoiusly did not affect the sign ups for Nats.
We went through a HP cap rule in 944 effective in Jan 2013.
I had to dump 5 hp and it was pretty easy to do with oil, exhaust and airfilter.
I know you cant do anything about exhaust but thick oil, a dirty or cheap paper air filter, heavy gear oil in trans and diff, spark plugs etc should get you legal.
My experience at Miller has been that the cars test 3-5hp lower anyways.
I am shocked to see how few E30s there are signed up for Miller. Must be something else going on besides a percieved HP gap.
My belief is that Charlie Hayes is right on the money about HP and the top drivers. the top drivers always make sure their car is performing at its peak. That includes set up, HP and being well driven.
Most drivers do not take an honest look at their skill set and automatically suspect a faster driver as having more HP or is cheating.
Sure hope you figure out a way to make it work.
I am testing at BW on the 30th just before Nats maybe I will see you there.

E30 Rocks and hope to rent one after Nats.

Charlie Buzzetti

#35

[quote=“Buzzbomb” post=73586]the top drivers always make sure their car is performing at its peak. That includes set up, HP and being well driven.
Most drivers do not take an honest look at their skill set and automatically suspect a faster driver as having more HP or is cheating.
[/quote]

I’d be interested to know how many of the front runners really believe the guy gridded next to them is “cheating”?

I can’t speak for anyone but me, but from back in mid-pack land, I simply assume everyone in front of me is A) a better driver, or b) has put way more time into fine tuning their car than I have the patience for. I could install a nitrous bottle and a “push to pass” button in my car and I still wouldn’t keep Grace’s taillights in view. From where I race, this is much ado about nothing, but I realize my mindset is vastly different than the people who qualify far enough ahead of me to actually see the starter drop the flag.

I don’t see this affecting me and most of my bretheren in the back much, but I do feel applying it midway through a year is a bit unfair.

#36

[quote=“ddavidv” post=73587]

I can’t speak for anyone but me, but from back in mid-pack land, I simply assume everyone in front of me is A) a better driver, or b) has put way more time into fine tuning their car than I have the patience for. I could install a nitrous bottle and a “push to pass” button in my car and I still wouldn’t keep Grace’s taillights in view.

…

I don’t see this affecting me and most of my bretheren in the back much, but I do feel applying it midway through a year is a bit unfair.[/quote]

On the same page with you regarding assumptions… and keeping up with Grace.

To play devil’s advocate, we did get fair warning at the beginning of the season that there would be some sort of rule implemented. Of course, we were told (in the rules) that it would be coming in two weeks. It didn’t, so I assume many of us figured it wouldn’t be coming it all. Turns out it did, after all.

#37

I guess I can use the 20 or so ETA motors I have now, shave the head and block, custom cam, adjustable sprocket and still come in under the HP rule…or maybe I am doing that already?

Al
solid mid packer

#38

[quote=“Steve Ferrario” post=73584]Back to the HP discussion. Sean, Mark told me his car got dyno’d at Fontana, the numbers he shared with me seemed surprisingly low since I know the motor & the numbers it produced last July & August…Unless he has done something to damage his motor or detune, then his numbers could very well represent the inconsistency we are going to see with this new HP rule if ALL cars are not dyno’d at the same time on the same dyno…
Worse yet, Mark goes to Miller thinking he has a car that falls within the rule, doesn’t bring extra ballast with him & is scrambling when gets dyno’d at Miller & his car is producing 162+hp. If Mark attends, I would highly suggest he bring ballast. I don’t see that motor being down 9hp.[/quote]

Yes, I said I dyno’d his car. I dont know what to tell you. His car dyno’d on the same dyno that your car made 170hp/170tq on with the same dyno operator.

Shawn

#39

Hey Charlie Buzz,
Good to hear from you & glad to see you are still tearing it up in 944. Thanks for the tips to reduce some HP, all good suggestions & combine those with hooking up the fan, power steering unit etc, I just might squeak in under the max HP limit. That said, a rather tall order for me to cut 15hp. Who wants to carry all that PENALTY Balast?

#40

[quote=“Charliehayes” post=73538][quote=“Ranger” post=73537]Lots of ways to detune, just use your imagination.

Carter is unlikely to debate this in a public forum. I’d talk to him offline.

Steve, it’s understandable that you’re unhappy about there being a hp limit that draws a line short of your uber-engine, but the other guys that will be there are probably pleased about it. It’s supposed to be about the driver.[/quote]

It still is about the driver. The best drivers, always do what’s best for their entire program. What do the people do to win or podium every race? How much testing do people do? How often do you align your car? How often do you nut/bolt the car? What do people do that are trying to podium or crack the top 5 do? People use hp as an excuse for their sub-par driving.

It doesn’t matter if there is a HP rule for 103whp or 300whp the people that win today will win tomorrow and the people that finish 10th today will finish 10th tomorrow…

Don’t like using examples of myself but here is something? Never driven this configuration and it was my first SpecE30 race. Started 6th and finished 1st by 10 seconds. After making a trip to the dyno for post race tech we found that the car I was in was a solid 10hp down to p2 and p3. It explained the low compression numbers and leak down. 2 years of racing and a 25hr of Thunderhill on a untouched bottom end can do such things…[/quote]

See, now I agree and completely disagree.

The “best” drivers are not ones making adjustments to the car and prepping it. They focus on driving. Guys that really know how to prep a car and show up to the track don’t want feedback from the driver. The car is usually instrumented and tested so the prepper/tech knows what is going on with the car.

Backing down from that scenario, which is usually reserved for pro racing, is difficult.

Testing is expensive. Last test day I could have done was $200 for one day, and I probably would have done 5-6 sessions, which cuts into the tire budget. Would it get my times faster? Maybe. Then again, I had been to that track probably 30 times. Plus, that is a vacation day for me and I have a finite amount of those.

Really though, I think the purpose of this rule is to get more guys out there instead of sitting at home like I was trying to save for a $6k race motor. I gave up on that and just started showing up to more races. Yep, I’m down a bit on power. I haven’t aligned my car since the beginning of last season. I don’t do test days (unless they are free like this weekend). Anything that can be done to cut down the cost of racing competitively is a bonus in my book. How you enforce it? No clue.

Having been in racing a long time I look at the new kids that want to race. If they show up and get beat they try to figure out how the other guys are doing it. There are so many variables it is difficult to determine which one gets them the best bang for the buck. Junkyard motors are making 140-150 whp. Apparently, some built motors are making 170. 30hp is a MONSTER of a difference. If we start capping at 155 before weight penalty, then the guys who first show up with basically a street motor can focus on fixing the little things and the nut behind the wheel before dumping money into a race motor. Then again, I still would like to see it go the other way as well, where under 155 gets you a weight break.

Nothing will sap your desire to race like finally saving up for that killer race motor to find out that, yeah you have a built motor, but you are still not finishing up front to realize you need more seat time. So, the money was wasted and MANY drivers quit right there and never come back. We want more racers.

If anything this HP cap has me more involved than I was before. I’m still cheap as hell though, as many can attest.

30hp…omg what I could do with 30 more hp. Zero tears, only dreams now. :silly: