Jim has published some SE specific supplementary rules. I put a link in this sticky and copied a couple significant paragraphs. http://spece30.com/forum/31-southeast/80712-se-supplementary-rules#80712
NASA-SE Supplementary Rules
Som
#2
Don’t want to defile that thread, so I’ll ask in this one.
Curious about the rule “Both feet in. If you lose control of your car, lock up your wheels. If you come back on track into traffic and your wheels are turning, you are wrong.” I’ve seen many incidents over the years of people hitting the wall while having their foot on the brake pedal, only to break their foot upon impact. It happened again this weekend at Sonoma (I’m not 100% sure he broke his foot, but that’s what I heard – and the brake pedal was mangled, so I believe it).
I (think I) get the intent, but seems like something that could be interpreted the wrong way in those kinds of situations. Might be worth revising so people don’t feel like they’re expected to have “both feet in” when they’re about to hit a wall (or possibly a stalled car, which is the other situation I’ve seen it).
My 2 cents.
Som
FishMan
#3
Hey Som, here is a classic example from last week’s Nascar race of what I believe the brake rule is meant to prevent. Notice how Danica doesn’t apply the brakes and rolls down the track after contacting the wall (perhaps her brakes were broken). Applied to our road course racing, we should apply the brakes and not roll back on or across the track as well. Before impacting the wall, do whatever you feel safe, then re-apply brakes after impact.
Som
#4
Ahhhh, glad I added the “I think” to the part about understanding the intent – clearly I didn’t get the intent of the rule. For some reason I was thinking it was more about requiring drivers to be cognizant of when they’ve gone beyond the point of being able to a save a loss of control incident and to lock up to make their movement more predictable to other drivers. Admittedly, seemed like a weird rule when interpreted like that, but figured maybe you Southeast guys are weird like that. 
Like “don’t try and save it and possibly fuck things up even more”.
But interpreted more as a “after you’ve already eaten shit, make sure to bring your car to a stop and not let it roll freely”, it makes more sense and doesn’t preclude the desire to try to avoid having your foot on the brakes during hard frontal impact.
Thanks for the clarification.
Som
Ranger
#5
Som, Rich is right, but you do have a point because there is a dimension here of, as you said, “lock up to make their movement more predictable to other drivers.” We don’t want someone who is out of control to roll back across the track because they failed to lock up their brakes. But we also don’t want someone’s car to move in some crazy unpredictable fashion because the driver failed to lock up their brakes. That would include going off into the grass, but then coming right back on to the track…The idea is that when they went off into the grass they’d have kept going that way and not returned on to the track if they had locked up their brakes.
There’s no perfect answer. The variables could work with you in one scenario and against you in another. In 2011 I hit a wall at Road Atlanta pretty hard. I slipped in coolant and the car snapped sideways. I didn’t even try to save it, I just locked up the brakes. I thought that I’d slide sideways down the track. Instead, ABS tried to restore control to me and I hooked right into a wall. That was a good lesson for me. Locking up the brakes doesn’t always result in the car going the direction you thought it would.
Be that as it may, locking up the brakes when you lose control is a lot more likely to keep the car’s motion predictable then otherwise.
You seemed to be concerned re. a conflict between the requirement to be on the brakes and the scenario where you’re about to hit a wall. Well, I’d suggest that if you’re just about to hit a wall, making your car’s movement predictable is no longer much of a concern.
What you do with your hands and feet at the moment of impact are up to you. When I hit the wall in 2011 I was braking pretty darn hard. I would later find out that at impact I’d broken the brake pedal. When I banged into Sandro at VIR last year i broke my wrist. It was a pretty no-account pussy hit so frankly, I was kinda embarrassed that I’d lose hit-points so easily. After that hit everyone and their uncle told me how I was supposed to cross my arms in a hit. But I was trying to turn the darn steering wheel to miss Sandro and I just wasn’t going that fast. I’ve seen lots of crash videos that were a lot worse and it’s pretty rare to see the whole “crossing arms” business. Personally, I think that some people just make a hobby of trying to correct others.
Do the very best you can to make the movement of your out of control car predictable. Don’t roll back on to the track. Don’t break your wrist.
Som, you understand that these are SE region supplementary rules, correct? Since you’re in San Diego, that makes them a kinda abstract concern for guys in your region. Give my regards to Steve Stepenian. He’s awesome.
Som
#6
Totally realized they were SE specific, which is partly why I didn’t want “defile” that other thread (which I believe was the sticky thread). Certainly an “abstract” concern in terms of how it affects me, but my comment was more of a general safety concern for all drivers interpreting that rule.
I’m sure experienced racers would look at those rules and totally understand the point and they’d end up doing what they feel is safe in a head on collision regardless of what some rule tells them to do. In that regard, my comment is pretty moot and/or pointless. I was more thinking about the newer drivers/racers that may look to rules like that to help guide their understanding of how they’re expected to react during an incident. When I read that rule, it made sense from the “predictable movement” perspective, but I also thought it could be interpreted (maybe? maybe not?) that it was expected that you were on your brakes throughout the incident – even if that incident had you heading into a stationary object.
Since I imagine most racers haven’t had to deal with a head on collision with significant force (and neither have I), I thought I’d just share my experience from a safety official perspective of what I’d seen in the aftermath of those kinds of incidents. The point of conveying that was to essentially say what you said – “if you’re just about to hit a wall, making your car’s movement predictable is no longer much of a concern. What you do with your hands and feet at the moment of impact are up to you.”
As a followup point, I’d recommend to people that “up to you” would include giving up on the brakes just before the moment of impact. That said, in the interest of not sounding like I’m correcting someone, it would probably suffice to say that it’s not uncommon for people hitting a wall head on to break their foot on the brake pedal. People can infer from that and decide how they want to respond should they happen to find themselves in a similar situation. I fully get that logical decision making processes are likely not always easy in those moments (and hindsight is 20/20, blah blah), but I imagine someone, someday, could find that information helpful.
Interesting about the whole “crossing the arms” thing. I’ve only really heard that in the context of a rollover where there’s potential for centrifugal forces to push (pull?) a hand around the window net. That said, after the incident at Sonoma I’d heard it again as a suggestion for what to do when impact is imminent. I’m with you on that – I kinda feel like I’m always going to be trying to steer the car to regain control. Maybe in raaare incidents – like when you lose steering or when it’s obvious you no longer have steering inputs and the car is just going to go where it damn well pleases – that it would be better for the driver to take their hands off the wheel to avoid further injury.
I actually haven’t had a chance to meet the SoCal guys yet. I work the NorCal region so I’ve been racing up there. The drive sucks, but my racing friends are up there, so it makes it worth it.
Som
Ranger
#7
Re. crash at West Coast Champs. I was there, but I didn’t see the impact nor hear much attempt at analysis as to exactly how the guy’s wrist was broken. Here in the SE there’d have been cockpit video posted so we could all good naturedly harass everyone involved. What I heard tho is that the steering wheel whipped around at impact and it either took the hand with it, which caused the broken wrist, or the steering wheel simply banged his wrist. Maybe one of the CA guys that knows more will chime in.
My perception is that there was a old-school teaching point that one drove with their thumbs outside of the steering wheel because the wheel had a tendency to spin in a frontal impact and break thumbs. I’ve never seen a steering wheel spin abruptly in an impact, so I’d really not paid much attention to the idea.
In my case I’d managed to kinda wedge my forearm between my abdomen and the steering wheel because I had 45deg of left input. My elbow was in my gut and my hand on the wheel. I wear my belts pretty darn tight and, as I mentioned, it wasn’t much of a hit. So the driver cam that was beside me and pointed right at me, doesn’t really show any forward movement of my torso at all. Nonetheless, my wrist went. https://vimeo.com/76840830
These lessons learned from the old veterans are the kinds of things that get discussed in the paddock over beer and chow. There’s also a Lessons Learned subforum here which. sadly, is kinda lean on content.
One lesson that I learned from my big crash into the wall at RA was that I should keep fighting to control the car, even tho I’ve got the brakes locked up. ABS is going to try to make the car go in whatever direction the front wheels are pointed, so it’s on me to ensure that the front wheels are pointed in a useful direction. As opposed to being pointed towards the nearest wall.
Racers are a very independent minded group. There is seldom consensus about anything. There’s sure to be plenty of folks that disagree with the idea of fighting for control even tho the car’s brakes are locked up.
Som
#8
Wow, yeah, the “on you” cam seems to look painless, but Sandro’s rear-cam makes it look like a pretty heavy impact. Your belts must be super tight!
Totally agree about the “lean on content” comment. Maybe people don’t like talking about their crashes, but it seems like there could be a lot to learn if people were willing to let others dissect their incidents. Reminds me of when I was trying to decide on cage specifications. Would have been nice to find data on incidents where cages failed and the circumstances that led to those failures to help decide what the ideal configurations are. To me, the whole “x-brace” vs. Nascar bars thing shouldn’t even be a debate – there should be enough data out there to have more definitive conclusions rather than everyone’s opinions and “well I saw a car with Nascar bars crash hard and nothing broke so that cage is the best”.
Agree with you on the keep fighting bit. Who knows how instincts will override rational thoughts in those moments, but I figure you keep fighting until the moment of imminent impact and then just tuck appendages and take the hit.
Som
Ranger
#9
This was the bad one. Read the text under the video to understand what went down. https://vimeo.com/33128427
Broke a rib in that one. Every American boy needs to break a rib at least once just to hold their head high among their peers. I’ve broken ribs 4x since HS, which would seem to indicate that I’m either trying too hard, am not very coordinated, or not very bright. Sadly, I really think it’s all 3.
Som
#10
That one looks pretty brutal. Hard to watch, even. I mean, I watched it like 5+ times, but still… hard to watch.
Som