Master Cylinders


#1

Question here:

I am considering replacing the master/booster assembly to attempt to firm up the brake system. I checked Autozone and the masters show two different ones, one for the ATE and one for the Girling, and the price is quite different.

I had girling calipers and switched to the ATE ones, which is really where my issues started (soft pedal).

Is the bore larger on the ATE caliper for the fronts and the reason for my strife?

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/1989-BMW-325IS/Master-Cylinder-Brake-System/_/N-iu675Z8kn47


#2

You’ll find a lot more versions than that. Check around some more, among them Rock Auto, you’ll find all sorts of versions with different bore sizes. I looked into this some months ago when I was playing around with ways to make the brake pedal more “hard”. The fact that so many different MC sizes, meaning fore/aft piston, are apparently available, confused the shit out of me.

What makes it tougher is that it’s hard to inspect an MC. Once you pull an MC apart, getting the piston back in with the seals intact is no picnic.


#3

Largest bore size available?


#4

How about sticking with OEM fitment, which can be ATE or Girling, but are both legal.

I’ve always understood that the booster and MC must be same brand (no mixing) but otherwise no functional difference between them.

An oversize MC is not legal.


#5

Large bore means lots of foot pressure to achieve same pad pressure. That means lots of stress on pedal, firewall, booster and MC. That’s a recipe for a mushy pedal. Smaller bore means less foot pressure to achieve same pad pressure, but more pad travel because the smaller bore has trouble pushing the same fluid volume.

[quote=“ctbimmer” post=73307]How about sticking with OEM fitment, which can be ATE or Girling, but are both legal.

I’ve always understood that the booster and MC must be same brand (no mixing) but otherwise no functional difference between them.

An oversize MC is not legal.[/quote]
It’s not that easy. I found MC’s advertised as OEM fitment with bore sizes all over the map. I also found multiple specs for OEM bore sizes. There was no clearly unimpeachable source of the spec. All I had was a bunch of “maybe’s”.

Booster and MC can be mixed and matched. There’s all sorts of booster’s and MC’s available on the market that say they are OEM fitment, but there’s no references to “ATE fitment” nor “Girling fitment”. A couple months ago, because folks told me that the shell of Girling boosters were less likely to distort, I swapped out my ATE booster for a Girling booster. I’ve no idea what brand my caliper was, I’ve gone thru several calipers on several cars over the years. The booster swap went fine. But the shell of Girling boosters is every bit as flimsy as the shell of ATE boosters so the swap was for naught.


#6

I just want something that works. Mine currently sucks. It was pretty decent until I switched to the ATE fronts. If I have to just deal with a shitty pedal, so be it.

No desire to go around the world looking for master cylinders. Apparently, nobody knows if the ATE and Girling calipers have different bores.


#7

Front, rear, or both? I have Girlings on the car and ATEs in a box so I could be persuaded to take some measurements if there were sufficient DB involved at Gman. FWIW my pedal feel blows too but only when the booster is working. I’m tempted to disconnect the vacuum line. You’re at the front anyway, why stress?


#8

I believe both are ATE now.

Dude, you had one DB and went to bed. If you stay up next time…

And if you stop DD’ing your car and make it a real race car, I bet you will be up front as well. Looking forward to it!


#9

Ouch! Touche. Why can’t a DD be a front runner? I can’t think of anything you’ve done to yours I haven’t done to mine. Both are still street legal. Oh except I may have 20mm of track width to go. In fact I’m gonna go measure it now.


#10

[quote=“Foglght” post=73309]I just want something that works. Mine currently sucks. It was pretty decent until I switched to the ATE fronts. If I have to just deal with a shitty pedal, so be it.

No desire to go around the world looking for master cylinders. Apparently, nobody knows if the ATE and Girling calipers have different bores.[/quote]

The caliper bores are the same. Caliper bore has a big impact on brake design so if the front calipers had different bore sizes we’d have a different MC and different bias valve…and there’s no indication that we have either.

Be advised that ATE calipers are best used with solid caliper bushings. Otherwise the pad will twist, wear at a taper, and therefore feel soft.

There’s no reason that swapping out Girling calipers for ATE calipers should change the characteristic feel of the brake system for the worse, all else being equal and assuming solid bushings. Therefore something else is likely going on.


#11

Well I wasn’t sure if part of the problem was starting with the tapered pads. In my cheap assed-ness I reused all the tapered pads until down to backing plates, which definitely could have contributed to the soft pedal. I do, finally, have a new set of pads and rotors. I will see how it all works out at Gingerman.


#12

A couple mm of taper on any of the 8pads will make your pedal feel mushy. This is because mushy braking starts when the leading edge of the tapered pad contacts the rotor. At that point you will have light braking at all corners. Then no more additional braking at any corner will occur until you’ve pushed the pedal down far enough that the tapered pad has twisted and is square on the rotor.