Intro thread w/ bonus cage legality question

#1

Hey guys, my name is Jonathan and I’m an Atlanta local starting a spec e30 build. I don’t have my NASA comp license yet, so I probably won’t be racing with you guys until next season but I’ll probably be seeing some of you guys at the track pretty soon.

I’ve owned my '88 325is since 2003, it was my first car. It’s on it’s 3rd motor swap (currently s54) and is pretty well setup for DE’s but I’m really looking to go racing instead. My original plan was to sell the car for a ton of money, buy a roller and go from there. But after some consideration, I’ve decided to sell the drivetrain and cool stuff, and build this chassis. The car has a back half cage that was done by a local shop, I was told that it’s the same cage they do for all of the SE30 builds that come through, but after talking to a few people I’m questioning its legality in the rear.

6-10 e30-6 by Jonathan braswell, on Flickr

Any input from some local experts? I’ve read section 15.6 in the CCR’s, and it seems to say that all mounting points must be in the floor, but I thought I read somewhere else the other day that mounting to the rear crossbar is ok, as long as the rear downtubes aren’t tied directly into the strut towers. Any input here? If I have to re-do the rear portion of the cage I think I would prefer to just sell the car and start from scratch.

I look forward to meeting you guys and hopefully racing with you all next year!

Jonathan

#2

You need to talk to someone that knows more about cages than I do. Contact Joel at Barber Race Works. He’s SpecE30/944 builder and racer. He makes great cages. He’d have good answers. Robert Patton would be another good source of info.

Now that I’ve told you that I don’t know what I’m talking about, here’s my take.

Re. Rear brace mount points. NASA CCR 15.6.11 says that the rear braces may be connected to the rear shock mounts. I would interpret that as meaning your rear mounts points are ok. That doesn’t make them a good solution tho. I’d have a welder run some heavy steel down from your mount points and cover several inches of the trunk floor. That will fasten the rear tubes to your frame rails instead of being fastened only to the relatively thin steel of the shock towers.

Several times/year you will see a big crash at the track. If you deal with safety weaknesses before your first big crash, instead of after it, you’ll be smarter then most of us.

Re. tieing your shock towers together. There has been discussion of this over the years. Some searching around the forums should find some old threads. A couple years ago we had a rule changed that allowed rear braces. See SpecE30 CCR 9.3.8.9. Here’s the problem tho…I recommended above that your cage get tied into the trunk floor, but the SpecE30 CCR says that rear brace can’t tie to the floor. So is the horiz bar a piece of the cage or a brace?

I don’t think anyone in SE region is going to care so for regional races you should be good if you choose to tie mount points to the floor. But before you go to Nationals you should talk to National SpecE30 director Shawn Meze and get his take on this.

I vaguely recall someone in SE region having this same rear cage issue sometime in the last couple years. I don’t recall the details of the discussion or resolution. Maybe he’ll find this thread and chime in.

Welcome to the group, you’re going to have a blast.

Don’t wait until the car is perfect. Just get it “good enough” and get to comp school. There will be years afterwards to make your car perfect. Otherwise you’ll spend months on little “nice to do” projects, when you could be spending your weekends racing.

#3

Welcome!

Where in Atlanta are you located?

I was hoping to go to comp school in June but ended up blowing my motor at the March RA event. Just got a rebuild running last night actually B)

#4

[quote=“Ranger” post=81108]You need to talk to someone that knows more about cages than I do. Contact Joel at Barber Race Works. He’s SpecE30/944 builder and racer. He makes great cages. He’d have good answers. Robert Patton would be another good source of info.

Now that I’ve told you that I don’t know what I’m talking about, here’s my take.

Re. Rear brace mount points. NASA CCR 15.6.11 says that the rear braces may be connected to the rear shock mounts. I would interpret that as meaning your rear mounts points are ok. That doesn’t make them a good solution tho. I’d have a welder run some heavy steel down from your mount points and cover several inches of the trunk floor. That will fasten the rear tubes to your frame rails instead of being fastened only to the relatively thin steel of the shock towers.

Several times/year you will see a big crash at the track. If you deal with safety weaknesses before your first big crash, instead of after it, you’ll be smarter then most of us.

Re. tieing your shock towers together. There has been discussion of this over the years. Some searching around the forums should find some old threads. A couple years ago we had a rule changed that allowed rear braces. See SpecE30 CCR 9.3.8.9. Here’s the problem tho…I recommended above that your cage get tied into the trunk floor, but the SpecE30 CCR says that rear brace can’t tie to the floor. So is the horiz bar a piece of the cage or a brace?

I don’t think anyone in SE region is going to care so for regional races you should be good if you choose to tie mount points to the floor. But before you go to Nationals you should talk to National SpecE30 director Shawn Meze and get his take on this.

I vaguely recall someone in SE region having this same rear cage issue sometime in the last couple years. I don’t recall the details of the discussion or resolution. Maybe he’ll find this thread and chime in.

Welcome to the group, you’re going to have a blast.

Don’t wait until the car is perfect. Just get it “good enough” and get to comp school. There will be years afterwards to make your car perfect. Otherwise you’ll spend months on little “nice to do” projects, when you could be spending your weekends racing.[/quote]

That was what I read the other day that had me thinking I was ok. Thanks for the info!

I have a pretty good plan for the safety stuff on the car, and will have it squared away before comp school for sure. I’ve worked in racing for a while now, when I first started I worked doing setup and trackside support for a local spec miata shop running national level cars. I’ve seen enough carnage to know what to expect and prepare for, hopefully! I think the last thing on my list will be the motor, Im thinking I’m going to do DE’s and comp school with a use motor, while building a good one in the meantime. Thanks for the tips! B)

ecrawshaw- Thanks! I’m in the Marietta area

#5

Nice!

I’m relatively local in Brookhaven, Harkinsc lives a little bit closer to you in the Smyrna area. Feel free to reach out to either of us if you need a hand.

#6

The way I read the rules leads me to believe that this setup is illegal.

9.3.8.9 of the Spec E30 regulations basically state that you can have a rear strut or tower brace but it can’t be part of the roll cages structure. We have seen several of these types of situations in the SE and those were ultimately required to change the cage/brace configuration.

#7

My take is illegal, as the down tubes terminate on a tube, and not directly to a legal mounting plate. The down tubes are required elements of the cage.

My old #401 was built that way too, and nobody cared, but that car was scrapped in 2013 and never went to nationals.

Personal opinion, legal or not, I don’t like the tubes-on-tubes, seems like in a bad wreck things could just start to fold up

Referencing the CCR,

15.6.11 says
The main hoop should have two (2) braces extending to the rear. The braces shall be attached as near as
possible to the top of the main hoop, and no more than six (6) inches below the top. The braces should not
contain any bends*. There must be at least 30 degrees between the plane of the main hoop and the plane of
the rear braces. The main hoop rear braces shall be installed to form no more than a one hundred five (105)
degree angle or no less than a seventy-five (75) degree angle with the main hoop when viewed from the top.
may consist of an “X” pattern design. The main hoop braces may be mounted at the rear shock mounts or
suspension pickup points (providing that the braces remain in compliance with all other sections of the CCR).

And 15.6.13 Mounting Points says
The roll cage shall be mounted to the floor area, which includes rocker panels, of the car in six, seven, or eight
points. The cage shall not go through the firewall. The seventh and eighth points must attach to the firewall or
front fender wells. All cage attachment points must be mounted to plates or a mounting box (plinth). Each
required cage bar shall terminate on a plate with a 360 degree weld to the mounting plate, except as specified
in Section 15.6.14.B. There shall be only one (1) mounting “point” per plate. This point is defined as where the
“required tube” mounts.

#8

Ditto what Chuck said. Had the same cage as Chuck and same as you have pictured. Illegal, by definition in the rules book; 99% legal by all of the folks you’ll be racing with. Will the 1 guy ever get upset? Will it be called out at a National event? When will you ultimately want to correct it?

Hit the track with it in the SE and then worry about the aforementioned questions.

RP

#9

Johnathan is going to be fast in time guys, he’ll be one to watch out for. He already tends to kick my ass in iRacing. :stuck_out_tongue:

I had discussed the cage issue with him and few days ago and brought up the point that I’m pretty sure Sandro has a very similar setup in the rear of his car, and as we all know he went through National Tech at the championships last year. I may have been seeing things wrong though.

#10

Thanks for the replies guys, I don’t think I’ll be at Nationals for a couple years anyways, so if I can run in the SE with this without anyone caring then that’s what I’ll do.

Alex, if iRacing was real I would certainly be quick, but I might also be dead (I crash a lot)

I officially have a buyer for my S54 swap/drivetrain, so should be starting to strip the car to finish the cage in the next couple weeks.

#11

Welcome to the SE30 party! I’m down in Smyrna/Vinings if you ever need a hand with anything. Where are you in Marietta?

W.R.T. cage safety, I agree with the assessment of others. Get those rear down bars to the trunk floor. From what I understand, rear down bars can not be tied to the rear strut tower brace anyways.

Harkins

#12

[quote=“Barrosco” post=81122]Johnathan is going to be fast in time guys, he’ll be one to watch out for. He already tends to kick my ass in iRacing. :stuck_out_tongue:

I had discussed the cage issue with him and few days ago and brought up the point that I’m pretty sure Sandro has a very similar setup in the rear of his car, and as we all know he went through National Tech at the championships last year. I may have been seeing things wrong though.[/quote]

I remember a couple people commenting that Sandro’s new cage was illegal back at Barber in 2014.

#13

[quote=“harkinsc” post=81124]Welcome to the SE30 party! I’m down in Smyrna/Vinings if you ever need a hand with anything. Where are you in Marietta?

W.R.T. cage safety, I agree with the assessment of others. Get those rear down bars to the trunk floor. From what I understand, rear down bars can not be tied to the rear strut tower brace anyways.

Harkins[/quote]

I’m in West Cobb, off of Macland Rd. My girlfriend’s sister lives right across the street from Smryna Market Village, so I’m over in your part of town pretty frequently. If you keep your car over there I wouldn’t mind checking it out sometime, I’m looking for ideas on seat mounting mostly. My seats are mounted with Massive (the brand) brackets on stock sliders and are way too tall and not rigid enough.

#14

[quote=“King Tut” post=81125][quote=“Barrosco” post=81122]Johnathan is going to be fast in time guys, he’ll be one to watch out for. He already tends to kick my ass in iRacing. :stuck_out_tongue:

I had discussed the cage issue with him and few days ago and brought up the point that I’m pretty sure Sandro has a very similar setup in the rear of his car, and as we all know he went through National Tech at the championships last year. I may have been seeing things wrong though.[/quote]

I remember a couple people commenting that Sandro’s new cage was illegal back at Barber in 2014.[/quote]

I am pretty sure Sandro had that issue resolved by the next race. To be honest, nobody is going to care unless you are at the pointy end of the field. That is why Sandro was called out. :slight_smile:

#15

[quote=“jb325is” post=81126]

I’m in West Cobb, off of Macland Rd. My girlfriend’s sister lives right across the street from Smryna Market Village, so I’m over in your part of town pretty frequently. If you keep your car over there I wouldn’t mind checking it out sometime, I’m looking for ideas on seat mounting mostly. My seats are mounted with Massive (the brand) brackets on stock sliders and are way too tall and not rigid enough.[/quote]

Yup, car stays at home with me. PM me for contact information. I’m available any evening really.

I looked at your Flickr, and your build looks really clean… I think you should find a beater to convert to a SpecE30!

#16

I have a strut mount that is bolted and it’s separate from the cage. When we first built the car the cage builder had it made similar, but had to change it as some other sections. If you’re fast they’ll even look at the windshield wipers and headlights (Ryan W) :stuck_out_tongue: . When I arrived at the West Coast Champs last year, they found several things that were illegal on my car, the NASA sticker wasn’t what they sold (I cut it myself), I didn’t have headlights (had metal inserts), the rear tail lights were smoke (not OEM), I have a big bumper car but with a newer valance, I am here illegally, little stuff like that, lmao!!

Don’t do anything, like Robert “El Padrino” Patton said, then if you want to do Nationals and consider yourself within the fastest 10 - modify it for sure.

#17

Cool, thanks for the info! I’ve been to the runoffs with the Spec Miata’s a few times, so I know what you mean… People really start to care when you run up front :slight_smile:

Deposit put on s54 today, so the teardown begins!