Ignition switch and auxiliary panel

#1

So, I bought this QuickCar 50-864 switch panel to replace the ignition and key start, and to provide switchable cool shirt, electric fan, lights, windshield defroster, accessory powered devices, whatever. According to NASA, the battery relay or disconnect has to be in front of everything, just off the positive battery post, so when the solenoid is disengaged, the power is removed from all electrical items, with the exception of the electrical trigger for the fire system, if one is included in your car.

Based on the wiring on the back of this panel as it stands, there’s a solid aluminum main buss bar to which all the switches other than the momentary plunger attach, with a red 8AWG wire feeding the main buss, and it seems like everything would be made live by engaging the solenoid, but I was counting on engaging the solenoid with the panel, so I can kill the car totally when the switch is down. Is this not how I should be doing it? If it’s okay to use a switch on the dash in conjunction with the kill switches for the emergency workers, and have them only live when the main switch is engaged, I can wire past the buss bar on the back of this panel, directly to one of the switches. Then I would wire them so the emergency safety switches wouldn’t even have power unless the panel switch was engaged, and thus the solenoid couldn’t engage, without the dash switch engaged. Sort of two layers of security. If there’s not supposed to be a total kill switch on the dash, too, then how do you guys do these panels? I’ve seen them in several cars on the race footage, so I know guys are using them, but the video is typically not clear enough to read all the labels, and of course we can’t see the back of the panel anyway.

#2

I am using the Parallax BR 100 relay, also. It has a high current side and a low current side, for separate switching of high and low power draw.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/418FtwgHP9L.SX355.jpg

#3

[quote=“HiFiGuy” post=83252]So, I bought this QuickCar 50-864 switch panel to replace the ignition and key start, and to provide switchable cool shirt, electric fan, lights, windshield defroster, accessory powered devices, whatever. According to NASA, the battery relay or disconnect has to be in front of everything, just off the positive battery post, so when the solenoid is disengaged, the power is removed from all electrical items, with the exception of the electrical trigger for the fire system, if one is included in your car.

Based on the wiring on the back of this panel as it stands, there’s a solid aluminum main buss bar to which all the switches other than the momentary plunger attach, with a red 8AWG wire feeding the main buss, and it seems like everything would be made live by engaging the solenoid, but I was counting on engaging the solenoid with the panel, so I can kill the car totally when the switch is down. Is this not how I should be doing it? If it’s okay to use a switch on the dash in conjunction with the kill switches for the emergency workers, and have them only live when the main switch is engaged, I can wire past the buss bar on the back of this panel, directly to one of the switches. Then I would wire them so the emergency safety switches wouldn’t even have power unless the panel switch was engaged, and thus the solenoid couldn’t engage, without the dash switch engaged. Sort of two layers of security. If there’s not supposed to be a total kill switch on the dash, too, then how do you guys do these panels? I’ve seen them in several cars on the race footage, so I know guys are using them, but the video is typically not clear enough to read all the labels, and of course we can’t see the back of the panel anyway.[/quote]

That was very hard to follow.

You’re making this too complicated. Complexity is an ass-kicker because you’ll end up at an event and your shit won’t work, or you’ll get intermittent failures that defy troubleshooting.

No one is likely to check your aftermarket wiring to the extent that you’ve described. Wire your shit up so it’s safe and reliable. Your aftermarket stuff needs to be robust enough to survive being banged around, and you should be thinking about possible crash scenarios and what might happen to your wiring. Like, how might impact push my kill switch’s hot connectors into a ground. Same for your switch panel’s buss.

I would not do 2 kill switches. I certainly wouldn’t make one of them electrically actuated. Kill switches fail. Complicated kill switch ideas fail even more often.

It kind comes down to this…I see a lot of “the old me” in your ideas. You want solutions that are elegant, clever, and cool. I would urge you to cut that shit out. The new me is a lot smarter then the old me. And the new me is telling you to focus on dirt simple robust solutions. Complexity is your enemy.

#4

Ditto the above.
Key stays in ignition and it turns the car on and off. Kill switch stops power to everything. My car is much simpler than Gress’s car.

RP

#5

Loud and clear. I do like elegant and cool, but reliable is my top priority. Will just keep the key for that part, and use the panel for stuff like aux fan, cool shirt, etc.

#6

Consider the two power sources Key-On and Battery. That’s a more useful discussion then choosing things that might bypass the kill-switch. My data logger, cameras, and coolshirt all get power from the Battery. That is to say “always on”, not Key-On. My kill switch kills everything.

The reason that those 3 devices go to Batt power is that there are scenarios where you want to be able to turn off the car, yet not disturb those devices. An example is a red flag. You might sit at the side of the track for 10min, but you know that your battery is weak so you don’t want to leave the car on for the whole time. Therefore you turn the car off. However, because they are connected to Batt not Key-On, your cameras and data logger continue just fine, and every couple minutes you run your coolshirt for 15secs.

Another scenario is if you go off track and your car stalls. You move your key to the off position, then restart your car. If you data logger and camera were connected to Key-On, you just turned your race into 2 video and data files instead of just one. Heck, it may take a couple minutes for your data GPS to resynch, and you might have to hit some buttons on it to start it recording again.

#7

I definitely see the benefit to that scheme. You are still killing ALL of that with the big kill switch, right?

#8

Yes, my kill switch kills everything.

#9

My two cents here, which comes from someone with less experience than Ranger/Patton and runs counter to their advice. You can choose to ignore, but figured I’d open my big mouth anyway. :slight_smile:

I didn’t find the kill switch wiring to be particularly complex. Though I did mine after going through all the wiring in the car with ETM in hand, labeling every wire (I got addicted to my label maker), and removing all wires/junctions/plugs that were not needed for racing.

I accomplished the same thing I believe you’re trying to accomplish, and it was pretty straightforward. I have a solenoid mounted to the rear passenger wheel well with the battery heavy gauge wire running directly to that. The benefit of the solenoid is that I don’t need heavy gauge wiring/switches to kill the power, so I can add switches where ever I like.

  • I have a large big “PUSH TO KILL” switch on my passenger B pillar for the emergency workers.
  • I have a red safety covered switch on my dash for me.
  • I plan on adding an additional switch in my trunk. The idea here being that the car is push-button and doesn’t require a key to start (I have no wiring around the steering column). So to make it a bit more theft resistant (emphasis on “a bit”), I can put a kill switch in the trunk and lock the trunk. Of course, this has been “the plan” for 3 years now, and I have yet to do it, but hey… :slight_smile:

Car was built in 2014, with about 9 race weekends throughout 2015/16/17 – not a whole lot. But I have yet to have an issue with the kill switches. Maybe as the years go on the switches or solenoid will fail, but I imagine that wouldn’t be the hardest problem to diagnose.

Som

Edit: Figured I’d add – I also have switches on the dash for “run” and “accessories” power, which effectively map to the same functions that the various key positions mapped to. So if I want transponder/coolshirt/camera power, I can use the “accessories” switch. “Run” powers all the engine electrical needs.

#10

Let me play the pessimist for a moment.

When things fail, it’s in the worse possible way. So it will fail in one of two ways.

Failure mode 1). You’re all strapped in because you’re supposed to be on grid in 5min. Car won’t start. You unstrap, pop the hood, run to trailer and grab your multimeter. While you’re buddies are on the track, you’re checking things with the meter. You can’t find a damned thing wrong. After 15min, you try to start the car again, just for grins, and it starts just fine. Then you stand there and grind your teeth trying to know, since you never found the problem, if you can ever trust your car to start again.

Failure mode 2). Instead of giving you a closed connection, the solenoid’s contacts get tired from the vibration and instead give you an intermittent high resistance connection. The problem only occurs after 15min on the track as the connectors warm up. As a result you end up with engine management problems as your DME struggles to deal with voltage fluctuations that the battery would normally damp out. The engine management problems are not only bizarre, but they are also intermittent. After months of making yourself crazy replacing shit, you finally throw yourself off of a bridge.

#11

If we’re distilling OP’s request down to a kill switch vs. kill solenoid debate, then that’s a totally fair argument. But I think that’s different than suggesting the entire idea is flawed because it over complicates things. Really you’re argument is “be wary of solenoids compared to switches when it comes to reliability and failure modes”.

Again… perfectly valid argument, and one that I fully agree with.

That said, if one is willing to take on the inherent reliability risk associated with a solenoid vs. switch – which I may argue isn’t particularly bad, but is definitely not insignificant (to use a double negative) – and is willing to accept that risk for other benefits (simpler switch wiring that doesn’t require heavy gauge wire running to each switch), then my point is only that the rest of that work doesn’t really add up to materially significant risks in comparison.

Som

#12

Heck, just having 2 kill switches is a mistake.

Related thought. My perception is that you’ve not gotten your car on the track yet. It sounds to me like you’re walking down the Ludo path, a local SpecE30 type that owned a fully prepped SpecE30 for 3yrs, but somehow never got it thru Comp School. He spent 3yrs dicking around with little “nice to do” projects and utterly failed to come racing with us.

The morale of that story is to make a “must do” and “nice to do” column. The must do should contain ONLY the things necessary to pass tech and be roughly SpecE30 compliant. Then start racing. In the months after you start racing, start working thru your “nice to do” column.

Do it your way. You’ve exhausted my desire to be helpful.

#13

You know, I’ve given you the benefit of the doubt on several occasions with how you address me because of how revered you are on these forums and in the Spec E30 community. I figured I was probably misinterpreting the tone in your messages over and over again. I even made a point of taking a break from my safety duties to come by and say hi and introduce myself during the '15 WCCs at Laguna Seca.

Nope, guess it wasn’t a misunderstanding. It seems like the only person you appreciate posting long or expositional posts in these forums is yourself. Guess it’s “too exhausting” if someone doesn’t agree with your way of thinking – even if I go out of my way to say that I do agree to a big part of it – but whatever.

For the record, I’ve been “racing” the car (comp license and all) since I built it. I’m not fast – back of the pack guy, in fact – but I still love it. I also love working on the car and learning about it, which is why I’ve enjoyed these forums and particularly enjoyed your contributions to it. But I’m 100% over your fucking attitude towards everything you’ve responded to me about. It’s too bad, since you’ve obviously got a lot of friends in the community. Just a shame you had to be a dick to me.

Som

#14

Hmm. I didn’t mean to make you crazy. I apologize. The various things I’ve written over the last year directed at you, have been honest attempts to help, I assure you. I feel badly that they only annoyed you. I’m used to knowing everyone in SpecE30, so they know me as the bundle of fun that I really am. Or at least try to be. But you and I are 3000mi apart, so I don’t have that “face to face” time with you, that would help ensure my words get interpreted as I meant, vs. how they were clearly perceived. So, I screwed that up.

I had thought that you were still working on the car and had not yet got it on the track. Obviously I was wrong.

I apologize, and I feel badly that I’ve annoyed you.
-S

#15

Well, that escalated quickly. Here I was trying to ask questions to liven up the forum, which has slowly become sort of a poor second cousin to the FB new-hotness. Didn’t mean to create enemies or tension. I bought the solenoid, the same one Winding Road sells as their ultimate example of awesomeness. I’ll give it a shot. The good news is nothing I do with that thing is irreversible, so if it’s not a good solution, no harm no foul. I will say that I have been using similar items for power control since I started wiring national championship-winning mobile audio systems almost 30 years ago, and I have never known them to be a significant point of failure, so I am not TOO worried, but willing to at least give it a shot. I know everyone has their tried and true methods, and sometimes it takes someone coming in new, who doesn’t “know how we do things” to show that maybe there are two ways to skin that cat. If I miss a session because of my trial, so be it. It won’t be the first time.

#16

Scott, I don’t really know how best to describe it other than interpreting your tone over the years in many (certainly not all) of your posts as condescending and/or dismissive. I’m an “assume I’m wrong first” kind of guy, so I’ve always just figured, “maybe it reads dismissive, but he didn’t mean it that way” and I move on.

But then to read your last post – which was more about telling me how I like to dick around for 3 years and not get anything meaningful done and that I had exhausted your patience by attempting to respond to the OP’s original question – that really flipped the switch for me (“oh shit, I guess I wasn’t so wrong after all”), even despite my attempts to make the tone of my own posts in this thread as deferential as possible to you and Robert’s opinions.

Since it sounded like you felt caught off guard, I figured I’d provide some perspective. I’m not one to keep on the offensive when someone has apologized, so I really do mean it sincerely that I’m not just trying to pile on. I appreciate your response and obviously will try and give the benefit of the doubt in the future where I can.

Som

#17

I’ve been thinking about this exchange. Maybe I figured out the problem. I’ve hung out and shared beers, laughs and lies with almost all of the SpecE30 guys on this half of the country, and a good fraction of them on your half. I hope, actually I hope very much, that they see the big smile and the offered beer behind my every sentence here, on fb, emails, txts, etc. It frankly didn’t occur to me that someone might not see the big grin and stupid hilarity behind “you’ve exhausted my desire to help”.

In retrospect tho, I totally see your point, and I’d have been pissed too. I fucked up and you’ve done me a service in pointing it out.

#18

Get a room, you two! :stuck_out_tongue:

#19

[quote=“Ranger” post=83297]I’ve been thinking about this exchange. Maybe I figured out the problem. I’ve hung out and shared beers, laughs and lies with almost all of the SpecE30 guys on this half of the country, and a good fraction of them on your half. I hope, actually I hope very much, that they see the big smile and the offered beer behind my every sentence here, on fb, emails, txts, etc. It frankly didn’t occur to me that someone might not see the big grin and stupid hilarity behind “you’ve exhausted my desire to help”.

In retrospect tho, I totally see your point, and I’d have been pissed too. I fucked up and you’ve done me a service in pointing it out.[/quote]

That’s a fair assessment and makes sense. I didn’t think to consider it as being tongue in cheek, but I’m certainly willing to realign my interpretations and, again, appreciate your candidness.

In response to what you wrote in the other thread, I hope any reluctance to contribute in the future is fleeting. At work, I have to exercise a great deal of self control to write emails that are short enough for people to actually read them… but in forums I just write. I think that’s how you work, too – you just write – which is a big part of why your contributions have been so invaluable – we get to follow the trail of thought that gets you to your conclusions, which is often as helpful as the conclusion itself. Would be a shame to lose that.

Som