Girling to ATE conversion - low pedal with ATE


#1

Background: I bought reman ATE front calipers from Turner and ran them for one race and they worked great. Prepping for the next race I had poor pedal pressure. Further investigation found shot blast material still in the caliper that scored the seal and piston. Turner graciously replaced those for free. I hang the new calipers and bled all 4 corners etc. Running several quarts through each caliper and I still have a soft pedal. I rebuilt the ATE’s with fresh ATE seals to ensure these ones were good. Reinstall and bled everything and still have a soft pedal. I just hung the Girlings back on and with a quick bleed the pedal is perfect again.

What am I missing? I can’t see any visible fluid leakage on the ATEs, there aren’t any air bubbles coming out while bleeding. The system is fine because when I swap back to the Girlings I just have to crack the bleeder for a second under pressure and I have a pedal back. Could there be a bore difference? I’m really confused because the first set did work great until the shot blast material did it’s thing. I am running the brass bushings on the ATEs but they’re freshly greased and the caliper slides great before you take up the slop to the pad.

-Tim


#2

I’d be interested to hear thoughts on this too. I have an E32 MC and a long pedal. No idea what the girl Kings were like as I never used them. Kinda pondering going back to the original MC.


#3

Soft pedal, as you know, is classic air in the system. I know you feel that you bled all the air out, but this sort of thing happens all the time. Keep bleeding until it’s hard. Recycle the fluid that you bleed out, don’t throw good fluid away.

A pressure bleeder is handy for this sort of thing because it allows you to do the job w/o help, and you don’t have to carefully sync asst’s brake pedal foot and bleeder valve.

Just to double-check…your brake pads are all pretty flat, correct? No slanted asymmetrical wear patterns?


#4

I agree, it has to be air. However it can’t just be a bleed issue from swapping calipers and opening the system. I’ve since gone back and forth twice. The Girlings bleed out instantly. The ATEs go through several quarts with no resolve. (Both running the pressure bleeder and doing it the old fashioned way) I’m going to try hanging one at a time next to see if I can isolate to 1 caliper. I was trying to come up with a pressure loss bench test somehow…


#5

I believe the E32 MC is commonly used to gain pedal back when deleting the booster. I’d have to look at the sizes but I believe an E32 MC coupled with the power assist would in fact lower pedal pressure drastically.


#6

My understanding is the e32 mc is 25mm vs e30 23mm so in theory less pedal travel to obtain the same result? Shouldn’t this mean a firmer pedal?

The other thing to investigate for me as a RHD car is Firewall flex, series 2 cars had a brace from the inside rod linkage bracket to the top of the transmission tunnel.


#7

Yes, a larger dia MC means a harder pedal. This is because the larger piston means your foot force is spread across a larger piston area. So a given amount of foot force pushes more fluid, but creates less hydraulic pressure. Therefore in order to get the same pressure at the slaves, you have to press harder with your foot.

Big multi-piston calipers mean you have to push lots of fluid therefore require a big MC. The big MC requires lots of foot force so you need a booster. That’s why you could stop old vehicles even tho they had manual brakes. Old vehicles had small slaves the didn’t need much fluid displacement to move. Small slaves meant small MCs ok. Small MC’s build big pressure at a given foot force so didn’t need brake boost.

It can be kinda tricky to know for sure MC diameters. If you go to RockAuto, for example, you’ll see MCs of various diameters listed for our cars. An 87 might have MCs of 3 dia’s and an 88 might have MCs of 5 dia’s, even tho all those 5 would be compatible with the 87.

It gets worse. Often you will see 2 dia’s listed for a single MC. A lot of folks interpret this as different MC dia’s for front and rear hydraulic line and think that this can be used to change brake bias. That’s not what’s going on, at least I’m pretty sure it’s not what’s going on. If you google “step bore mc” you’ll read about MC design where the MC uses 2 different dia’s in order to help the slaves quickly “take up” the gap between pad and rotor, then the smaller bore actually squeeze the pads against the rotor. This “take up” is the opposite of “knock back”.

Certainly firewall flex is an issue. I did some experiments on that a couple years ago. The write up on that is here somewhere.

Re. air isn’t the issue because my Girlings don’t have the problem. You are underestimating how diabolical a soft pedal can be. Sometimes the solution is more persistence then logic. Also, don’t be reluctant to change the MC. I know that doesn’t fit the symptoms, but after doing the same thing over and over again and not getting the results you want, at some point it becomes time to do something different even tho logic doesn’t point in that direction.

A couple years ago I convinced myself that my back slaves were not getting the same hydraulic pressure as the front. I went thru a couple weeks of being soaked up to my elbows in brake fluid as I worked with pressure gauges to test pressure every place in the system over and over again until I was sure that I had everything figured out.

After chasing all sorts of wild gooses, swapping out components over and over again, I never found the problem. Ultimately, the symptom disappeared and my braking distances returned to what they ought to have been. The whole damned adventure made so little sense that in retrospect I wonder if the “why can’t I get my damned car to stop” symptom wasn’t all my imagination.

Brakes can be diabolical.


#8

Thanks for your comprehensive response, you do a great job on these boards.

I reconditioned my calipers today - car has been laid up for 8 months in a carport. So new nipples, rings and seals and a good clean out. One thing that occurred to me is that I might have had the calipers on the wrong side of the car. If the bleed nipples were pointing down…

I can see the MC flexing, so I think a brace on the nose could be a plan, along with the trains brace.


#9

Rookie error-the master cylinder was night tight to the booster. That is now fixed. I’ve also swapped over the inside bracket, turns out there is quite a bit of reinforcement within the bracket itself, let alone the tie across to the transmission tunnel. Brake and clutch pedal pivot bushes replaced. The Deleon ones are stiffer on the rod, but looser in the housing. Not sure they will make much difference. The originals are well engineered though.

Also found and re-read the previous thread on pedal travel.