Frustrating - Water in Oil - Help

#1

I’m starting to get frustrated. Nothing like Gress and his 9th engine, but close.

I broke a timing belt at Road Atlanta (RA) a while back, and Gress sent me a rebuilt head. I didn’t check the head to make sure it was flat, but I’m guessing Gress didn’t send me a warped head. I put it on, new head gasket, new head bolts, torqued to the specifications in the book, etc. The car ran well at RA on its next outing, except for a few vaccumn leaks. One of them was the hose between the valve cover and the throttle body, so I took it off, plugged the throttle body, and let the other hose vent to atmosphere. It points right up at the hood. No issues at RA like this.

Next outing is in Florida. First morning session, I start the car and water is dripping a bit from where the exhaust system clamps together at the bottom of the manifold. No issues I think. I run the car, runs fine, come back in and the PCV hose has blown milkshake looking goo on the underside of the hood. Not a lot, but enough that it shouldn’t be there. I run compression, looks good, plugs look good, so I run it. No issues all weekend. Car does not run hot.

Last week I go to start the engine, and it sounds like the starter doesn’t want to crank for a second. Then the car starts. I’m guessing this is water in the cylinders. As the car is running, it drips water (probably 2 ounces) out of the same exhaust connection, and there is rust water coming out the tailpipe in a spray. Odd.

Today, as I am loading the car to race at Sebring, same as last week, hard starts, but when it fires it shoots a spray of water all over the hood of my Mercedes, which was at least 4 feet away. Another 3 ounces of water coming out the same exhaust connection. Let it run for 5 minutes, no water, all is well. Car runs fine, makes good power.

Now for the bad part, if the above isn’t bad enough.

There is a little milkshake on the dipstick. Not a lot, but there is some. There is also some milkshake on the bottom of the oil fill cap on the valve cover. When the engine is hot and running, there is a little steam coming out of the PCV, but nothing substantial.

What happened here? I’m guessing the head gasket is bad or the head isn’t flat, but could this be a cracked block from when the timing belt broke? About 8 valves hit the pistons and 5 rockers snapped. I cleaned up the piston tops and everything looked to be good.

PS I’m going to run the car this weekend, and it either lives or dies. I know this is a bad idea.

Any thoughts? I’m pretty frustrated with this car. I have had some major mechanical issues in the first 5 outings and looking to get this car reliable.

#2

Everything you describe is screaming head or head gasket problem. It is unlikely that the block is cracked.

A used head should always be checked for flatness.

#3

What is the preferred brand of head gasket? I think I got the non-preferred brand, but I had the head and the block really clean and followed the directions to a t.

#4

definitely sounds like a blown HG, but it’s odd your compression was ok then. I used a Goetze HG the last time around.

#5

My perception is that blocks don’t normally warp and the machine shop that did the head has done a lot of work for me and has never let me down. They did a gentle decking of the head to “sharpen” it’s edges. So although both mating surfaces are probably square, in a perfect world the block would have gotten a gentle decking too to sharpen it’s edges. Sharp edges at the coolant and oil holes helps the gasket seal, as I understand it. In any event, that’s probably not the problem.

Oil pressure is usually higher then coolant pressure so if the two are mixing, there’s usually more water in oil then vice versa. There’s some exceptions tho…It doesn’t take much water to turn oil into milkshake. I once had to change the oil 5X before the oil quality turned out ok. Another exception can be, as you alluded to, water getting into a combustion chamber.

I also had to do one HG install twice because the first attempt didn’t seal. I later found some small wrinkles on the HG. Maybe that was the cause and maybe not.

From your description, it still sounds possible that it’s really just condensate and you’ve nothing to worry about.

It’s also possible that water got into the oil system during the head swap.

Here’s what I’d do…We have to figure out if there really is a problem or not.
Dump the oil out. Save a big sample of it in a clear jar or jug.

Put in 4qts of cheap oil and run it for 10min. Dump the oil, drain the oil filter, and get another sample. Compare the oil quality to the first sample. If the oil quality looks less then perfect, do it over with a 2nd 4qts of cheap oil.

A neat trick is to get the threaded pipe that allows the oil filter to be directly attached to the block. This is the e motor config. This allows you to remove the oil cooler adapter from the block so contaminated oil can’t hide in it. I’ll go find the part #.

Don’t run your car hard on cheap 10W30 btw.

Consider dumping and sampling your coolant water too. Get your sample out of the overflow reservior because oil will collect where it is highest. Note that if you dump your coolant you have to pull a bolt out of the passenger side of the block to empty the block’s water jacket. Otherwise you’re just emptying the radiator.

This is all working on the assumption that it is possible that oil and/or water could have been contaminated during the head swap.

If the oil quality looks perfect, put in 6qts of good oil and go race and see what happens. If the oil quality looks not perfect but might have improved with the 2nd load, do a 3rd load and see how the sample looks. Keep telling yourself that it only takes a couple ounces of water to contaminate the entire oil load. If the 2nd load looks really bad, then swap the HG. Be sure to carefully clean the mating surfaces. A razor works for the block, but you have to be careful with the head because the razor can damage it.

The boys at e30tech.com like Goetz HG’s, not the more common Victor Reinz. There are also OEM HG’s that are well thought of, but at $200 they cost about 4X what they should.

You might also swap out your coolant reservior cap. It’s supposed to open at 1.2bar or 1.4bar, depending on the model. If it’s not opening, the coolant pressure could spike and cause this.

My perception is that our blocks don’t normally crack. They’re pretty rugged. It’s the head that goes.

#6

Part #11112140435 to put the oil filter right on the block. Can be found on the Internet or at dealers.

If you don’t use this part, then you have to account for the oil thermostat. That means that when you put in your cheap oil, you have to run the engine long enough for the oil to get hot enough to go thru the oil tstat and flush the oil cooler. That’s supposed to be around 180deg, but Jim Levie says that his didn’t open until much hotter.

The only way to know for sure is to feel the oil pipe that goes to the cooler. Once it’s good and hot you know that oil is going thru the oil cooler.

#7

The water from the exhaust sounds like a leak into a cylinder. Run the car for a while at normal temperature, park it, and let it sit. Then remove the spark plugs and have someone crank the engine while you watch the plug holes. If water sprays out, there is definitely a head or head gasket problem.

#8

Is the coolant level dropping?

#9

I just put a rebuilt head on a rebuilt block and now lose a pint of water from the reservoir every 20 minute session. No water in the oil. No water/steam from the tail pipe.

Replaced the head Gasket, which looked fine upon inspection, with another OEM speced HG. Still same issue. Ran 45 minute race at Nationals and lost a quart of water from the reservoir. Compression seems fine. Pressure test on coolant system fine. car seems to pull fine.

Mystified. My 250k motor gave me ZERO issues. Should have kept it. Good thing I did not podium at Nationals or I would have been DQ’d for my illegal water injection system.

#10

the Shoe wrote:

[quote]I just put a rebuilt head on a rebuilt block and now lose a pint of water from the reservoir every 20 minute session. No water in the oil. No water/steam from the tail pipe.

Replaced the head Gasket, which looked fine upon inspection, with another OEM speced HG. Still same issue. Ran 45 minute race at Nationals and lost a quart of water from the reservoir. Compression seems fine. Pressure test on coolant system fine. car seems to pull fine.

Mystified. My 250k motor gave me ZERO issues. Should have kept it. Good thing I did not podium at Nationals or I would have been DQ’d for my illegal water injection system.[/quote]

Sometimes folks overtighten the cap on the overflow reservior. This can damage the plastic threads on the reservior and/or cap. So rather then it being a 1.2bar cap, it can let out coolant a little early. This could fit the symptoms.

#11

Ranger wrote:

[quote]
Sometimes folks overtighten the cap on the overflow reservior. This can damage the plastic threads on the reservior and/or cap. So rather then it being a 1.2bar cap, it can let out coolant a little early. This could fit the symptoms.[/quote]

We replaced the cap and reservoir tank also. Issue remains. Another BMW mechanic has speculated that the head when being rebuilt and the valve seats being replaced may be leaking past the new valve seats when hot.

#12

the Shoe wrote:

[quote]Ranger wrote:

[quote]
Sometimes folks overtighten the cap on the overflow reservior. This can damage the plastic threads on the reservior and/or cap. So rather then it being a 1.2bar cap, it can let out coolant a little early. This could fit the symptoms.[/quote]

We replaced the cap and reservoir tank also. Issue remains. Another BMW mechanic has speculated that the head when being rebuilt and the valve seats being replaced may be leaking past the new valve seats when hot.[/quote]

Not sure I buy that. I’ve not seen a head cut in half to see just how close the head’s water jacket comes to the valve seat, but I’d bet a 6-pack that water would have to pass thru 6mm of aluminum to even get to a valve seat.

And if the aluminum at the valve seat was cracked, allowing water to it, I’d bet that the valve wouldn’t seat worth a crap and that cylinder would have low compression.

Of course it has to be something. It’s it’s sure to be something that was considered and dismissed.

#13

Vented to atmosphere??? Dont quite understand how the valve cover to throttle body hose can be disconnected and the motor still run.

I had an Alfa that milkshaked like that and it ended up being condensation…yours sounds a little worse…have you retorqued the head?

Al

#14

Al, you plug the TB fitting and vent the valve cover to a catch tank. Better solution than putting oil vapor in the combustion chambers.

Head gasket…[color=#FF0000]CHANGE[/color]!!! Do not race the car with water in the oil…you will wipe out the whole motor, unless, of course, you have spares. Have the head pressure tested…does not cost much and will pinpoint the problem. Inspect the head under the cam…this is a known place the head can crack. My opinion is that the gasket is bad…I will only use the Victor Reinz gaskets…I have had leakage problems on a fresh build with others. Chuck

#15

shoe, have you checked your water pump? it maybe leaking slowly.

#16

kishg wrote:

Yes. changed water pump and of course gaskets there at the same time we replaced head gasket.

#17

sounds like a leak in the head gasket between the cylinders and coolant passages without being able to leak out the closed systems in the motor. I think the only head gaskets I have run are victor renze, but I have had gone through a lot of gaskets in the turbo car. I’ve never had the head off of my other e30s. Try doing a test for exhaust gases in your coolant.

Leaving the valve cover vent open is a bad idea. It is a vacuum leak and at very least will cause idle problems and maybe power loss.

#18

turbo329is wrote:

[quote]
Leaving the valve cover vent open is a bad idea. It is a vacuum leak and at very least will cause idle problems and maybe power loss.[/quote]
I disagree. IMO Chuck is right. I think the block is a high pressure zone, not a low pressure zone. So air is looking for a way out, not a way in. This isn’t the intake tract. Small amounts of ring blow-by pressurize the bottom end. Those pressure pulses need a way out or they’ll blow seals.

#19

your right the tube is the only way the crankcase is connected to the intake.

#20

Ranger wrote:

[quote]turbo329is wrote:

[quote]
Leaving the valve cover vent open is a bad idea. It is a vacuum leak and at very least will cause idle problems and maybe power loss.[/quote]
I disagree. IMO Chuck is right. I think the block is a high pressure zone, not a low pressure zone. So air is looking for a way out, not a way in. This isn’t the intake tract. Small amounts of ring blow-by pressurize the bottom end. Those pressure pulses need a way out or they’ll blow seals.[/quote]
The block is a low pressure zone. It is sealed except for the hose that runs from the valve cover to the throttle body, which keeps the block at intake pressure (below atmospheric).