Elaborate oil systems. The end of an era?


#1

I have a remote oil filter, after market oil cooler 3.5X as large as OEM, an Accusump, many feet of -10 line, and endless optimism. It all worked ok with the crankscraper, but now that i’m running the spare engine and it has no scraper, there’s been a lot of crazy oil pressure problems.

I have oil sensors all over the damned place. Friday I was able, for the first time, to really watch the gauges during left turns. Normally I’m watching the turns, but Friday was all about oil so I watched gauges. I could see the interplay between pressure at the pump, pressure at the Accusump, and pressure at the engine’s oil galley. It was pretty interesting. I watched the same gauge interaction lap after lap.

The oil pressure problems that I had at 2 other events in the past month were being repeated and I was trying to understand them. When my oil got good and hot, 3 left turns in a row left me without oil pressure for an incredibly long time. Accepting risk I idled the motor for 60secs and got no pressure. After turning the motor off for 5min and then restarting it, pressure was returned.

This same sequence repeated itself several times.

I went a quart over and things got a little better. Then I went 2 qts over and things got slightly better. But still, once the oil got hot, my oil pressure would go to 0 for a long minute.

Saturday morning I got up early and ripped out all my fabulous oil system plumbing, the product of many hours of labor 15 months ago. I threaded the oil filter directly on to the block like an E motor. Therefore I now had an oiling system entirely different. The length of oil path between pump and galley was only a couple inches and because of the filter’s backflow valve, if the pump when dry it could prime the whole system with about a teaspoon’s worth of oil.

And my oil pressure behaved completely differently. I could still see the pump go dry on almost all left turns, but the oil pressure recovered almost immed.

Sadly, the motor only lasted for about 15min and then failed. No compression in 5 cylinders. Leakdown indicates it’s leaking past the rings. Which is odd because they lubricate via “anti-wear”, not “constant flow” so it’s hard to understand how some interruptions in oil flow would have damaged them. But such is the price of science.

So after all of that, here’s my theory on oil pressure and elaborate oil systems.

The scraper is critical. The pump going dry in virtually every left turn was painfully obvious in the gauges.

The Accusump was doing it’s best, but the 3 successive left turns at CMP…1, 3 & 4 were totally overwhelming it.

The additional oil plumbing created by my -10 lines to the remote oil filter, oil cooler, and Accusump create a lot of oil system volume. Add to that, my oil cooler is far larger then OEM. Therefore when my oil system goes dry there is much more volume that the oil pump has to charge in order to bring pressure back up in the whole system. Our oil pump doesn’t pump that much oil. It’s kind of a fast dribble. I think that it’s incapable of quickly refilling so much oil plumbing volume.

So I’d kind of set up a perfect storm. No crankscraper in the spare motor meant constantly going dry. So much oil plumbing made the consequences of going dry far more severe then otherwise.

When I ran Saturday with all my oiling system ripped out and the oil filter directly on the block like an E motor, I could still see the oil pump drop to ~25psi on left turns, but the pressure came back up almost immed. The duration of the oil pressure drop was very brief. So when the pump goes dry and you have a short oil path, pressure is restored quickly. If you have a long oil path, not so quickly. If you have a long oil path and multiple “pump sucks air” in rapid succession, not even an Accusump will save you.

Lessons learned.

An Accusump is a bandaid. That’s obvious enough, but I thought that it was a really good bandaid. It might be more accurate to simply call it an “ok” bandaid. The real solution is not letting your oil pump suck air. Installing a scraper is a big step forward as is a better oil pan like the Poore pan. But I think that the best solution would be to install both. That’s what I’m doing.

There are folks that have been tracking their car for years with no scraper and have had no problems. That means that there’s aspects of this that still aren’t understood.

Because our oil pump is a pussy, remote oil filters and big oil coolers are a serious liability IF you have problems keeping your oil pump’s pickup submerged.

I got 14deg of cooling out of my big aftermarket oil cooler. I’d estimate that the OEM oil cooler is good for 6deg on it’s best day. I wonder if the oil cooler is worth the downsides of additional oiling complexity, plumbing volume, and weight? If our oil temp goes from 225deg to 230deg because of no oil cooling, is that a problem? There’s lots of performance cars that run hotter oil then that.


#2

Dang, didn’t know that these engines had oil coolers.

Really, the three that I own (all 86 and 87 chassis) do not have coolers. Really good to hear that this may be “good.”

KISS is the word.

Scott,thanks for doing the science experiment.

RP


#3

I’m glad you’re not blowing up motors, just doing destructive testing on them. I would like to know where this magical m20 tree is located at.


#4

I didn’t run an oil cooler this weekend and wondered if that had anything to do with my water temps being high…maybe not. The coolers add several failure points so I usually do not run one except maybe July and August.

Al


#5

turbo329is wrote:

Once we get to know and like each other, you are welcome to rag my ass to your heart’s content.


#6

Patton wrote:

[quote]Dang, didn’t know that these engines had oil coolers.

RP[/quote]

What chu talkin bout Patton?..

I thought all “i” cars had an oil cooler. It is that 14" x 2" long heat exchanger below and in front of the radiator fed by the lower air inlet. The oil lines that feed the cooler come off the oil filter bracket.

Don


#7

In the engine swap(s) the coolers fell off. That performance advantage is what secures my and Laura’s positions as “also rans” in the field.

Seriously, like Al sez, just something else to break.

RP


#8

donstevens wrote:

[quote]Patton wrote:

[quote]Dang, didn’t know that these engines had oil coolers.

RP[/quote]

What chu talkin bout Patton?..

I thought all “i” cars had an oil cooler. It is that 14" x 2" long heat exchanger below and in front of the radiator fed by the lower air inlet. The oil lines that feed the cooler come off the oil filter bracket.

Don[/quote]

they may come from the factory that way (i’ve no idea) but i’ve seen >1 e30/m20 with no oil cooler. maybe they get removed by a previous owner or mechanic due to a leak, or to save money when repairing front end damage, etc. a 20 year old car has lots of stories.


#9

So what is involved in removing the factory oil cooler and just running a filter like an E motor? Did you need any extra parts or do you just unbolt the oil cooler adapter and screw on the oil filter?


#10

Patton wrote:

[quote]In the engine swap(s) the coolers fell off. That performance advantage is what secures my and Laura’s positions as “also rans” in the field.

Seriously, like Al sez, just something else to break.

RP[/quote]

Aint dat sumpin - One more testament to how stout these little motors are cause I know you run yours hard.


#11

King Tut wrote:

You have to have an e motor oil filter widget to screw an oil filter directly to the block. If you hit my web site and go to the page that talks about the build of the oiling system, you’ll find the part #.

In order to fasten an aftermarket oil filter adapter to your block, you have to have that e motor oil filter widget. So in order to screw the oil filter directly on to my block at the track, I removed the aftermarket oil filter adapter, and left the widget in place.


#12

Ranger, It sounds like your accusump needs an orifice in the line to restrict the flow of oil. The orifice should be sized so the oil pressure with the pump not working is less than the pump would put out but high enough to protect the bearings. This will save the bearing and let the accusump supply oil for a longer period of time. Another benifit of the orifice is when the pump starts to work again more of the oil will go to the bearings vs all of it going to the discharged accsump. You would need to look at the pressure output from the accusump as it discharges to set the size of the orifice. Good luck with your next engine! I hope there are still some engines around when I need one :slight_smile:


#13

I don’t think that’s what is happening. I want the Accusump to discharge as fast and efficiently as possible. That keeps pressure to the galley when the pump goes dry. Yes, refilling the Accsump diverts oil that one would prefer go to the galley, but that’s unavoidable. The Accusump has 10psi of air in it. So oil pressure has to be 10psi at the galley before the Accusump will take a drop of oil. Sure, 10psi is not a lot, but if the Accusump is being forced to totally discharge then the problem needs to be attacked differently.

What was occuring last weekend, I think, is that my big elaborate oiling system was going dry. In terms of recharging, that’s a lot worse then a small volume system going dry. There’s no doubt in my mind that the Accusump helped, not hurt, but the 6’ of -10 hose going to it was a problem. That hose increased the volume of my oiling system. I’m considering putting the Accusump much closer to the engine and using -8 hose.

There’s an aspect of this that I’ve still not puzzeled out tho. My theory of too much oiling system plumbing fits all the symptoms but one. Each time I went dry, I had to let the car sit for >5min before oil pressure returned. Even if I ran the motor at 2k rpm for 30sec after going dry, I was still dry. If I let the car sit for 4min and started it, I was still dry. But if I let it sit a bit longer and started it, I had oil pressure. That is hard to figure out.

What if the action of the bearings actually creates a small pumping action such that if your pump sucks air the spinning crank will act to gently pull oil from the galley? If that was the case then it would suck the oil out of my big oil cooler and suck the oil out of my oil filter. That would increase the time required to recharge the oiling system. Consider…just because the pump sucks air should not mean that the oiling system really empties itself. If the oil isn’t being pushed, it just sits there in the hose, filter and cooler. None of those should really empty themselves.

And why did the car have to sit for 5min after the Accusump fully discharged? Why would it take so long for the oil from the sump to return to the oil pan? That makes no sense. God how I hate not understanding.


#14

Most of the manual 325i (and non Sport models) we had here in Australia came without oil coolers; and were not fitted with a 90 degree adaptor as used on M20 engines with air conditioning. The screw insert (2 different threads) is BMW Pn. 11 11 2 140 435; M20x1.5 block end, 3/4-16 filter end.

The oil cooler adaptor uses a big banjo bolt (essentially) through to the block.

King Tut wrote: