E30 Bumper Rules?

#1

I am looking at a car that has had a bumper conversion from the Al to the later plastic bumpers. Is there any legality issues in running this car?

Thanks

Post edited by: elephant2, at: 2005/08/17 07:47

#2

Not specifically allowed in the rules there, not legal.

#3

Mike,

while I understand the hardline of the rules…

They are the Stock bumpers you would find on a later E30 and have no performance gain. It’s just what many E30 owners have done to make their E30 more cosmetically pleasing. Plus keeping such a hardline on the stock assemblies seems to be out of line with 9.3.13.3 and 9.3.13.3.1. The later being "Vehicles with integrated front bumpers assemblies may use aftermarket front one-piece bumper/spoiler unit, provided the original crash bar is maintained."

Karl Rentler
#747 KP[color=#FF6600]
http://www.elephantmotorsports.com
[/color]

Post edited by: Elephant2, at: 2005/08/18 21:51

#4

Karl:

We’ve had this discussion many times before. To keep it simple and consistent, every car has to race with the bumpers that came from the factory, on that model year.

Carter

#5

Then why allow an aftermarket bumper cover to be used, or aftermarket airdam/spoilers?

This seem a touch inconsitant with the "Spec" of spec E30. When you allow aftermarket mods but not allow a car that is stock in every way?

My suggestion is either do or dont allow modification, but don’t give the option to change to aftermarket if you are going to keep a hardline on stock parts that came on later model E30s.

I dont see a bunch of guys running to get plastic bumpers just because they are allowed. And if they do that, it is their choice. There is really no gain to be made other than cosmetics. Plus you dissallow a bunch of cars that are perfectly good Spec E30s.

#6

do you have a game plan for the first guy who comes into the series and has a bumper conversion car and didnt realize it is illegal? Someone sells an 88 as an 89 or something. Are you going to make him change back?

#7

Didn’t realize??? Who goes through all the trouble to build a race car and doesn’t read the rule book?

#8

Can’t be too hard to put back.

You could sell all the pieces for more than the aluminum ones cost you. You could probably find someone who would give you the old pieces and cash in exchange!!!

Aluminum is the way to go IMHO. Way less likely to destroy itself through incidental contact.

Ric

#9

Never under estimate the stupidity/creativity of people. It’s not hard to change build date plates! Are you checking VIN’s at every event?

I believe the front-end sheet metal is different on the 87 and earlier cars. Not so easy to change. Also the way they mount is completely different. To properly do the recoversion would not be that easy or cheap. Even with mostly used parts you’re talking probably $200 an end. Yes you can probably re-coup the $$$ but there is the time and effort that would need to go into the car unnecessarily.

Plus why should they have to go back? They are completely legal parts that other spece30 cars are running.

I guess I could argue that I used the original crash bar and went "aftermarket" to the 89-91 bumper.

Or I’ll put on an aftermarket bumper cover on because that is legal…

#10

Again, Just follow the rules. They are fair, and fair for everyone.

#11

Elephant2 wrote:

To answer your questions…

  1. Yes. Our gameplan for any illegal mod is to tell the offender that he must make the car legal. If he "didn’t realize it is illegal," that’s his problem. He should have read the rules. And yes, we have seen this in other instances and the cars were made legal.

  2. If the car has been converted, it has to go back to the original bumpers.

Honestly, I’m surprised (as are many others I’m sure) that you’re making such an issue over this. I do need to remember, however, that almost all the complaining is done by non-drivers. After building cars, almost everyone has seen the fun of Spec E30 and is having a great time. This has obviously gotten under your skin but continuing to complain isn’t going to change anything.

Of all the E30’s in the United States, I’m sure a suitable legal car can easily be found. If you’re serious about building a car, I’ll be glad to help you find a car that has legal bumpers.

Carter

#12

Carter,

I am just pointing out a fundamental flaw in the rules.

Why allow an aftermarket bumper cover to be used in Spec E30 and not stock parts?

BOTH options should be illegal. Not either or…

If you feel my persistence is complaining, I am trying to get a point across. The rules should be consistent. If you are going to hold 88 and earlier cars to stock Al bumpers, then there should be no aftermarket bumper cover allowed period!

If you feel the need to attack me based on the fact that I am a non-SpecE30 driver than so be it, but you should have learned a lesson from another Chairperson who recently departed a certain series.

#13

Maybe you guys should just thumb wrestle?

Carter, I for one am with you no matter what the rules say. I trust your judgment.

brain

#14

brain wrote:

[quote]Maybe you guys should just thumb wrestle?

Carter, I for one am with you no matter what the rules say. I trust your judgment.

brain[/quote]

Carter the Pied Piper of Spec E30 :wink:

"In 1284, the town of Hamelin is suffering from a terrible plague of rats. The town council tries everything to get rid of them – without success. At last, the Mayor promises 1000 florins to the one who can put an end to the plague.
A stranger dressed in bright red and yellow clothes shows up and says he can rid Hamelin of the rats. At night, the stranger starts to play a soft tune on a flute, luring all the rats out of the houses and barns towards the river Weser, where they drown.

The Mayor refuses to pay the piper: "Playing a tune on a flute is not worth 1000 florins. Get out of Hamelin!"

But the piper returns on a Sunday morning, when all the grown-ups are at church. Again he starts to play a tune on his flute. This time, all the children follow him, as he walks out of the gate to the mountains. Suddenly, a cave opens in the mountain. The piper walks into the mountain, still followed by the children, and the cave closes again.

The children were never seen again in Hamelin."

Post edited by: Elephant2, at: 2005/08/31 00:19

#15

Hey jack ball…if you don’t like it, rather than bloging us with insults and silly analogies…just move along. Smart remarks and crying like a little girl over somthing as trivial as bumpers is rediculious.

As for the pied pipper analogy, 12 years as a Navy Fighter pilot has tought me to think independently. On this subject I trust Carter’s judgement…period. Not because I’m inclined to blindly follow "Carter’s" rules, but rather they priode equal playing ground for everyone in the series…of which, frankly, I hope you don’t join.

#16

Brain,
I am sorry my post upset you. You did come across as a lemming.

We don’t agree on this topic, but I have valid points that need to be addressed. It is certainly easy for Mike and Carter to moderate what happens with the group being small. However, I am looking at the rules and there is clearly a discrepancy that should be addressed.

I don’t think my comments have been out of line prior to the Pied Piper. I brought up an issue… I think Carter tried to denigrate me and tried to belittle my opinion with his comments.

The rules around the bumper cover and spoilers leave for much interpretation. Their hard line on the factory parts and not so with the aftermarket covers and spoilers seems to be out of line with the SPEC of the series. Why not address it now before many go off and run 1 piece bumper covers, and then have the poo hit the fan? Or for that matter specify which aftermarket bumper covers are compliant to run in spec E30?

Respectfully Submitted

#17

All of the finger pointing and moaning aside, I think a valid point has been raised.

There really is no advantage to be had with either set of bumpers, so why not just let them be open?

I’m not trying to be inflamatory, I’ve read the rules just like everyone else and think that this should be a topic for discussion.

Thanks,

JP

#18

Edit: double post. Sorry.

JP

Post edited by: 155MPH, at: 2005/08/31 21:25

#19

I’m going to throw my two cents in. I’m building a spec e30, I know. big surprise. But guess what! I read the rules, over and over and refer back to the rules for each change, addition, mod that I make Period! I’m not going to try to change something that I really have no control over. The basis of spec e30 is…come on you know!

Why change the bumpers, spend more money on something that has "as is argued no performance gain" It’s a waste of money. The only reason that any e30 owner would want 89+ bumpers is because they look better than the old style.

If you want the new style bumpers then find a car with the new bumpers, there is plenty of them out there. So lets quite whining and move on.

my last comment- it’s okay to ask a questions concerning changing the rules, you never know there might be an issue that was not addressed.

#20

I have to admit that my early comments were a bit too pointed. I wasn’t trying to be insulting to Karl.

With that said, it is very important that everyone knows that the Rules will remain stable, unless a significant error is found. While we may not agree on the bumper rule, the stability of the Rules is much more important that this one rule.

I raced with SCCA for many years and didn’t know what rules were changing…every month! How would we like that?

Of course, this bumper rule is not the same as a rules change every month and I’m not say it is. But rules stability is gigantic, and this bumper rule is a small part of the Spec E30 program.

We’ve had many people get surprised when we say this but instead of looking three weeks into the future, as do some club racing programs, we are looking years ahead. Because of the Rules stability, our cars will hold value simply because a car built this year, will be competitive five years from now.

Carter