E30 Aero


#1

I’m playing with an air dam and undertray idea right now. But I’m having no luck finding out any information on the downforce balance of our car. I currently have “curtain” sort of thing that provides 0 downforce. If you look at the OEM design, it looks like it would provide “some” downforce, but how much?

It’s hard to know how much a person can screw around with front aero ideas before they end up with a tailhappy car.

I’m not going to do a splitter. It would just get torn off the first time I ended up in the dirt.

My assumptions:

  1. The OEM front air dam and rear trunk lip provide reasonably balanced downforce. Since the car was designed with the Autobahns in mind you’d figure that the aero is functional as opposed to the amount of thought that goes into a ricer surfboard rear wing.

  2. My curtain provides no downforce. The OEM front air dam provides some downforce. Therefore I need more front downforce to get in the ballpark of the OEM aero design.

Anyone know anything about E30 downforce?


#2

There are a few windtunnels I believe up in NC Nascar country. But barring that level of insanity.

Find some thread - high viz color like white is good (like your grandmother used to knit with). Cut roughly 4 in. pieces and tape to the car all around. Or at least in the places you’re interested in.

Then drive the car up to speed, while a buddy video cams from different angles.

The thread should give a pretty good indication of how air is moving over / around the car.


#3

There’s people around that have these answers. I’m too lazy to do origonal research. Come on now…I ask questions…I don’t provide answers.

Even among us we probably have pretty good insight into this. How do we feel the car does, with it’s various air dam configurations, in fast sweepers.

It’s rare that I go fast enough in sweepers to really develop decent slip (I scare easily), so I don’t have a feel for the car’s downforce balance. But the guys here that are good, have that feel.

So guys, what do you think our dominate handling characteristic is, with various front air dam configurations?

For example, I see a lot of late model cars with no lip on their front sheetmetal. That looks to me like it wouldn’t give you spit worth of downforce. Those of you with that config, do you feel understeer at high speed? Have you driven your car with a front spoiler lip…and did it feel different?


#4

They didn’t name their company “Flying Brick Performance” for nothing. I’m not believing you can improve much on the already marginal aero drag of these cars. You might make a tweak here and there, but you would never notice an improvement.

I’m sure you’d have fun trying though.

John


#5

Speaking for one of the marginally fast, fast guys (the definition of mediocre): the areo doesn’t mean squat. Adjust the car with the sway bar in the rear /and or tire pressures. A little loose is fast.

Work on the driving game or the putting game and don’t worry about the composition of your golf club.

Really, I don’t think it matters.

Ask Skeen, Cobetto and the like.

RP


#6

I’d also politely suggest you may be overestimating the amount of E30 knowledge that exists.

If it is about turbos or eta / i stroker motors - yeah someone has probably been there.

If its about Oil pressure on 90mph left hand corners, front downforce, etc. You may be breaking new ground…


#7

I have a 91 with the original front bumper/dam, and last week had lots of understeer, didn’t slip much, and corner entrance speed was very decent.
The other cars had some kind of valance and/or splitter which I believe makes some difference.
I can’t quantify the difference, but just by looking at the lap times I could tell you that at least a valance/splitter is worth trying.


#8

Here’s my rudimentary approach to SE30 aero. None of this is based on empirical evidence. As I said earlier, I have employed my butt dyno extensively.

I agree with your assumption that the E30 suspension was tuned for high speed stability. The SE30 springs are stiffer than OEM. My sense is that the SE30 front springs are more stiffer (forgive the bad grammar :wink: ) than the rear springs, so the front is less sensitive to added downforce. In other words, you can load up the front with downforce and the car will handle OK if you keep the rear bar soft and compliant.

The purpose of an E30 air dam is to direct air flow to brake cooling, oil cooling, and around the sides. It will eliminate some lift, but not much. The bigger improvement comes from adding a splitter, which as the name implies, splits the airflow creating a clean, low pressure area of air that travels under the car. As long as the splitter is at the height of the oil pan, it is as low as you need. This coincides with the bottom of the factory “chin” spoiler on an 89-91 car.

Depending on the depth of the splitter tray in front of the air dam, you will get various levels of downforce. My splitter is built to the extent of the rules (2" out from the bumper outline) and is almost cartoonishly large. Based on Traqmate data at Miller, I could not discern any significant difference in segment times that included large straights. I attributed that to the assumption that the drag slowed me down, but I was getting on and off the straight faster due to better grip. In the twisty parts, there was not a clear time advantage with the splitter but I was driving more cautiously with the splitter since I didn’t know how it would affect the car. Essentially, I was able to drive more comfortably at the same lap time. I pushed harder as the week wore on, but never went back to back-to-back testing with and without the splitter.

The other advantage of a splitter is the flat tray behind the air dam, which helps smooth airflow. As Haynie said, that’s probably a moot point with a flying brick. But in theory I feel quicker.

A taller air dam (i.e. taller than stock) will not aid handling in my opinion. Once the air dam is low enough to split the airflow - even only modestly - and provides ducting for all the cooling demands it has done its work. When air hits the spoiler, it tumbles up, down and around the sides. The splitter prevents the tumbling down, hence its advantage. If you cause even more air to tumble, you will negatively affect drag without increasing grip. Is bad.

Regarding splitters and offs… Splitters are like tires and brakes. They are consumables. Bring a spare.

That being said, I don’t plan to run a splitter at the typical Southeast track. Splitters help eliminate push most in medium- and high-speed corners that are NOT preceded by a braking zone to set the nose and rotate the car. It seems like you can remedy push at the Southeast tracks through technique, tire pressure, toe, and cross. None of those are as drag-costly as a splitter.

These are all just opinions. Flame away.

Steve D.


#9

Have a look at the front air dams that the E30 Racing Cars run in Australia: www.e30racing.com.au

It’s essentially a copied E30 M3 front bar designed to fit within the space occupied by the standard E30 bumper. With a thin splitter on the bottom, which does help front end grip at higher speeds (approaching 100mph and beyond).


#10

During one of the RA enduro’s Franklin Futrelle and I ran this year, he ran a 144.0 in my car with no airdam or splitter. It was torn off at CMP earlier in the year and I didn’t want to buy the third replacement. Skeen beat that with a 143.8 the following day which to this day is the lap record in an e30 as far as I know. If down force aerodynamics can be improved on an e30 with airdams or splitters, I would say that virtue would be more pronounced at RA verses any other track.


#11

After 4 (or is it 5? I’ve lost count) different air dams, I’ve almost given up on the damn things :slight_smile:

I’ve had them all. even the homemade cow-pusher, which was ugly as hell but sweet (cuz’ it was so ugly). But I lost them all due to one thing or another… mainly me.

The one that’s worked the best is the one that I still have on the car. It’s off an 88 convertible. Al told be it’s a rarity, in they were only sold on 88 convertibles. It’s nowhere as low as the normal ones you see, which is nice when it comes to loading and unloading the car on the trailer. It also runs up under the car further than most, which is nice for air flow (I guess).

I’ve been thinking about playing with adding something that may help with down force. Thought of adding a flat piece that would be similar to what 67-ish mustang’s and camaro’s ran… or possibly some dive planes? (not to exceed the allowable profile specs, of course)
It sounds like anything I do will be for not, but I’ve got a surplus of ABS plastic and I don’t have a race till November. The combination of materials and time will more than likely lead to me doing something.

Not meaning to highjack the thread… but I welcome your thoughts


#12

Re. Low to the ground to function, not low to the ground to survive. Ya, that’s a conundrum. I can already see myself saying…“my new front air dam is definately helping. Excuse me now while I go fetch it from turn 1’s dirt trap.”

I started doing some reading last night. There’s a lot of info out there, it’s just not E30 info. Fun facts:

The primary role of diving planes is apparently not the intuitive, “get pushed down by the air blast”. Their primary role is to create vortices along the side of the car that help the low pressure zone under the car to stay intact. That is to say, prevent the low pressure zone under the car from leaking out the sides. This may be a bridge too far for us because it takes pretty high speed to work, and the complete lack of any side skirts on our car makes for a large leakage zone.

The design of the diving planes has to be right. They have to swoop up like a ski jump, not just angle up in a linear fashion.

I encourage you to put diving planes on. Really big ones so they have a prayer of being functional at 80mph and up. They might not do any good, but we’ll have a helova lot of fun admiring them in the paddock.

Splitter. I had dismissed the idea of a splitter because I figured that a dirt trap would just take it right out. But apparently it can have a big role in reducing the low pressure zone across the hood of the car. There’s lots of pictures out there of aero designs and resulting air pressures across the car. But none of the pictures show anything close to a big square front end with a gigantic early model bumper sticking out. And I can’t help but wonder if our front end shape wouldn’t render a splitter useless. I mean other then as a gardening tool.


#13

To me any benefit from a fancy splitter for these cars is far outweighed by the fact I’m going to tear it off at some point. I have a 91 and I run all the local events with out even the lip spoiler. I will put a basic lower spoiler made from garden edging on for bigger events like Nationals but I don’t think it makes much if any difference to be honest.


#14

Ranger wrote:

I am operating on the hope that the splitter will help me stay on track, eliminating the tear-off risk.

I’ve already said I think the splitter/air dam combo worked well at Miller (i.e. helping get back to full throttle earlier since the nose doesn’t wash out when you pick up the gas). Here’s what I think of its usefulness at other tracks I am familiar with based on how the car acted with/without it at Miller:

Road Atlanta - No benefit. Any turns I find “pushy” are preceded by a braking zone, so you can trail brake to fight push.

Barber - Slight benefit in the caroussels and kink.

CMP - No benefit. Caroussel is too slow and kink induces oversteer, not understeer.

Daytona - Disadvantage due to aero drag.

VIR - Undecided. Esses and South Bend would be nice with a splitter, but that place is pretty rough if you leave the surface.

MidOhio - Undecided. The Keyhole and caroussel are probably too slow for a splitter to help. Can you go through Turn 1 flat? I have always had to brake a bit to set the nose.

Roebling - Benefit due to medium speed sweepers.

Little Talladega - Who cares?

Lowe’s, Rockingham - Never been.

If anyone wants a copy of my template for a small bumper car, just send me a piece of cardboard 24" x 72" with a $10 taped to it.:wink:


#15

Re. RA. I think that more front downforce might be of use at turns 1 and 12. You might be able to use trailbraking to over-rotate a little at turn 1 turn-in, but I can’t. Heck, even the thought of entering turn 1 already drifting makes my hair want to stand up .

The guys that are fast are entering turn 1 at ~95, if I recall correctly. That’s plenty fast for good aero affects. Saying “trailbrake instead” is like saying “I don’t need traction because I trailbrake”.

Speaking of trailbraking generally. I’m really awful at it. I tried hard to figure it out last year over several dozen track days, but in the end I had to walk away. It was turning my already unspectacular turn-entry speeds into dogshit.

Re. CMP. I don’t think that there’s anything magical about the kink that induces over-steer. I agree that over-steer is common there, but maybe it’s cause by people being light on the throttle as they ride the bump and then try to get the car to settle again.


#16

Ranger wrote:

Isn’t that why we race? :laugh: It took me riding with Skeen at Roebling to truly understand just how far you can hang the back end out on an E30. His typical slip angle in Turn 3? (the left hand sweeper) at Roebling is the same slip angle at which a Miata is “way past catch-able.”

Brake earlier and lighter and the trail braking is easier.

My $0.02 on T1 and T12 at Road Atlanta? You have enough compression aiding traction in those two turns that additional downforce won’t even be felt. The tricky part in T1 is getting the car across the crest at the centerline of the front straight. Once you crest that hill, the car picks up traction. Except with wet grass, there reall is a lot of run-off room up the hill if you get it wrong.

[quote]
Re. CMP. I don’t think that there’s anything magical about the kink that induces over-steer. I agree that over-steer is common there, but maybe it’s cause by people being light on the throttle as they ride the bump and then try to get the car to settle again.[/quote]
I usually see throttle-on oversteer there. I stay on the gas until I hit the bump, then feather it if the back end is getting wiggly. YMMV.


#17

Steve D wrote:

[quote]
MidOhio - Undecided. The Keyhole and caroussel are probably too slow for a splitter to help. Can you go through Turn 1 flat? I have always had to brake a bit to set the nose.[/quote]

You have to brake for turn 1, a splitter might help here as I have had the front end wash out on me in turn 1 but usually its the back end that wants to step out first. A splitter might help in the fast left hander coming out of thunder valley. Maybe it would help some at the exit of the keyhole because it understeers badly there but like you said I’m not sure you have enough speed, probably can’t hurt. Also I don’t run the rear spoiler as mine is a 325i, I doubt it does anything much.


#18

Steve D wrote:

I’d contend that additional traction due to compression is brief. Brief compression, then rebound takes the traction away, and then it settles into steady state. I’d call the period of added compression only about 1sec.

So you get a second of better traction at turn 12 turn-in and at turn 1 just past the apex. Sure, there’s lots of track out width at the exit of turn 1, but the outer 2-3’ of track is all marbles. So that track out width is there for you…as long as you don’t ask too much of it.


#19

Steve D wrote:

[quote]Ranger wrote:

VIR - Undecided. Esses and South Bend would be nice with a splitter, but that place is pretty rough if you leave the surface.
[/quote]

Ditto. My first time at VIR my airdam ended up at the corner worker’s station at Turn 5. Without the car.

I did ask my computational fluid dynamics guys about aero for a 325is. What do you suppose they meant by “You’re better off with a brick.”?


#20

Sounds like he graduated from Georgia Tech. :wink: