Deleting Oil Cooler

#21

Steve D wrote:

[quote]BigKeyserSoze wrote:

The number of nice, innocent M20 engines that have perished because of that little phrase…

Ranger’s hypothesis is a wild combination of:

  1. the Factory3 oil pan protector blocks air flow around the pan (not impedes or minimizes, but effectively blocks cooling air flow)
  2. the stock oil pan is almost as effective at cooling oil as the oil cooler that BMW installed on roughly 1 million M20B25s

Therefore, we need an oil pan protector with holes in it.:blink:

In considering a redesign of the pan (assuming Levie’s language re: attachment points) it would not take a protector much more robust than the Factory3 plate to have the weak point then become the radiator support sheetmetal. You will hit a curb, the pan won’t bend, but the sheetmetal will. Then we will be back here with another rule change.

For Christ sake, just take some brake duct hose and point it at the frigging oil pan and leave the F3P plate in place. I promise not to protest you, Ranger.;)[/quote]

Nothing is sure but death and taxes. But I’ve a fair amount of data on oil temps under different conditions and the results do seem to point to those wild combinations.

The real question is…Are we comfortable that the OEM oil cooler has more advantages (cooler oil) then disadvantages (another thing to fail, some reduction in oil pressure)? My answer to that is I don’t know. But I’m going to try going without it and see what the data shows.

Certainly allowing more air flow to the oil pan will make it run cooler. How much cooler remains to be seen. My data is interesting, but falls short of rigorous.

If the project doesn’t interest folks, then they can choose not to do it and go back to watching tv and downloading porn.

#22

Ranger wrote:

How dare you accuse me of watching tv! :angry: :huh: :blush:

#23

Ranger wrote:

[quote]Nothing is sure but death and taxes. But I’ve a fair amount of data on oil temps under different conditions and the results do seem to point to those wild combinations.

The real question is…Are we comfortable that the OEM oil cooler has more advantages (cooler oil) then disadvantages (another thing to fail, some reduction in oil pressure)? My answer to that is I don’t know. But I’m going to try going without it and see what the data shows.

Certainly allowing more air flow to the oil pan will make it run cooler. How much cooler remains to be seen. My data is interesting, but falls short of rigorous.

If the project doesn’t interest folks, then they can choose not to do it and go back to watching tv and downloading porn.[/quote]

i’m quite interested in this experiment as i have a fresh motor and most certainly don’t want to see it damaged. i’ve also had an e30 oil cooler related problem in the past and would love to remove it provided the cure isn’t worse than the disease. however i do take exception to one of ranger’s statements - i watch porn and download tv.

#24

Those of you that are ditching your worthless oil coolers, I would be happy to take them. I will have the second car running soon and with all of this inventory I figure I can swap out both oil coolers every couple of months and keep them fresh. No need for the hoses as I already purchased them new. Thanks. :cheer:

#25

Steve D wrote:

[quote]Ranger wrote:

How dare you accuse me of watching tv! :angry: :huh: :blush:[/quote]
He wasn’t talking about you Steve. We all figure that you are a 12 o’clock flasher and that you haven’t figured out how to use the TV (or download porn).

For those that don’t know. A 12 o’clock flasher is the person where every object with a clock is flashing 12:00 because they can’t figure out how to set the clock.

#26

Listen up people…I will only say this one more time. BMW FITTED A FACTORY COOLER TO YOUR CAR…AND YOU WANT TO REMOVE IT FOR RACING!!!

Are you nuckin futz?

The only clear solution I see is to install a larger oil cooler than specificied by BMW because we are racing, not cruzing down the Autobahn. Hello…anyone home??? Chuck

#27

cwbaader wrote:

[quote]Listen up people…I will only say this one more time. BMW FITTED A FACTORY COOLER TO YOUR CAR…AND YOU WANT TO REMOVE IT FOR RACING!!!

Are you nuckin futz?

The only clear solution I see is to install a larger oil cooler than specificied by BMW because we are racing, not cruzing down the Autobahn. Hello…anyone home??? Chuck[/quote]

oil technology was different 20+ years ago, if a modern oil can do the job at elevated temps then so what. quite a few people on this forum run sans oil cooler with no noticeable ill effects so it’s not exactly a radical concept. and yes it’s racing which means that additional points of failure (especially ones that sit exposed below the front bumper) might not be such a great idea. plus racers tend to change oil at fairly short intervals so heat related degradation over time isn’t a huge factor either. so it’s not nearly as black and white as all that.

#28

jlevie wrote:

That joke was old when our cars were new…

#29

jtower wrote:

[quote]cwbaader wrote:

[quote]Listen up people…I will only say this one more time. BMW FITTED A FACTORY COOLER TO YOUR CAR…AND YOU WANT TO REMOVE IT FOR RACING!!!

Are you nuckin futz?

The only clear solution I see is to install a larger oil cooler than specificied by BMW because we are racing, not cruzing down the Autobahn. Hello…anyone home??? Chuck[/quote]

oil technology was different 20+ years ago, if a modern oil can do the job at elevated temps then so what. quite a few people on this forum run sans oil cooler with no noticeable ill effects so it’s not exactly a radical concept. and yes it’s racing which means that additional points of failure (especially ones that sit exposed below the front bumper) might not be such a great idea. plus racers tend to change oil at fairly short intervals so heat related degradation over time isn’t a huge factor either. so it’s not nearly as black and white as all that.[/quote]

Agree with jtower…

#30

Steve D wrote:

[quote]jlevie wrote:

That joke was old when our cars were new…[/quote]

lol… all new clocks have internet time sync now jim :slight_smile:

#31

jtower wrote:

[quote]cwbaader wrote:

[quote]Listen up people…I will only say this one more time. BMW FITTED A FACTORY COOLER TO YOUR CAR…AND YOU WANT TO REMOVE IT FOR RACING!!!

Are you nuckin futz?

The only clear solution I see is to install a larger oil cooler than specificied by BMW because we are racing, not cruzing down the Autobahn. Hello…anyone home??? Chuck[/quote]

oil technology was different 20+ years ago, if a modern oil can do the job at elevated temps then so what. quite a few people on this forum run sans oil cooler with no noticeable ill effects so it’s not exactly a radical concept. and yes it’s racing which means that additional points of failure (especially ones that sit exposed below the front bumper) might not be such a great idea. plus racers tend to change oil at fairly short intervals so heat related degradation over time isn’t a huge factor either. so it’s not nearly as black and white as all that.[/quote]

Certainly most race cars do have oil coolers, so Chuck has a point.

I’ll buy an oil filter sandwich adapter that will put an oil temp sensor right in the flow. If the sensor really is right in the flow, we should end up with a good comparison on flow temp vs. oil in the pan temp.

I’ve not emotional connection to either solution. If it’s clear that oil temps are high without the oil cooler, then I’ll put an oil cooler back on.

One thing worth noting…when I had that 14deg of oil cooling with my aftermarket oil cooler (3.5X larger then OEM), I had air ducted to it pretty well. The OEM oil cooler doesn’t get air flow for shit. Air flow is free to bypass it on all sides, it’s kinda pointed down, and it has an obstruction immed behind it.

There probably is utility in an large oil cooler with proper air flow control. But I don’t think that the OEM solution is worth the pressure loss.

#32

Canton makes a very good low profile cooler adapter and remote filter. There is a bung in the filter housing to sample pressure and/or temp directly off the oil pump. Has very high flow rate and, to me, is second only to the Oberg type filter. Chuck

#33

cwbaader wrote:

As of now, I don’t believe a remote filter is legal. It makes a ton of sense, but it’s not legal.

#34

Steve D wrote:

[quote]cwbaader wrote:

As of now, I don’t believe a remote filter is legal. It makes a ton of sense, but it’s not legal.[/quote]

There’s some ambiguity on this. Remote oil filters are ok in the unofficial rules comparison doc.
http://spece30.com/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,94/func,view/id,43405/catid,37/

This was in response to my rules change request.

But all the final V11 rules say about this is that oil lines may be “replaced”, which is to say, you can upgrade. Is odd. Maybe his Czarness figured that “replaced” could be interpreted as oil lines upgraded such that they also filter.

#35

So… After reading all this and the rules that Ranger outlined, and Chucks comments and well everything, it seems a logic place to explore is the “finned” oil pan…

BMW makes a finned aluminum diff cover for the 90’s era MCoupe maybe the idea of a finned Oil Pan is legit.

#36

kgobey wrote:

[quote]So… After reading all this and the rules that Ranger outlined, and Chucks comments and well everything, it seems a logic place to explore is the “finned” oil pan…

BMW makes a finned aluminum diff cover for the 90’s era MCoupe maybe the idea of a finned Oil Pan is legit.[/quote]

If I was any good at welding I’d already put some fins on mine. But since I’m not much good at it, I’d have to take my Metric Mechanic oil pan to a welder. Removing the oil pan is a shitty job.

#37

I think Tower is right about the fact that the oils 20 years ago were different. I’m far more interested in what Ranger sees on the oil pressure analysis. All other things equal, what is the difference in pressure with and without the cooler. Of course, he runs two oil pumps and 100psi, so I’m not sure that will cleanly translate to the rest of us, but I’m interested nontheless.

#38

kgobey wrote:

Some people even run the Z3-chassis finned diff cover on a Spec E30. Some people [size=1]coughRobinsoncough[/size] are afraid of ripping it off in an off-track excursion.

Since everybody else is talking out their a$$, here’s my accountant-turned-real-estate-guy-turned-weekend-engineer take on it:
If a finned pan could do as good a job cooling the oil as a proper stock oil cooler, why didn’t BMW make finned engine blocks and ditch those pesky radiators? :laugh:

The diff cover is finned because the mechanism doesn’t generate that much heat and getting the fluid to a cooler in the airflow would be a complete b!tch.

The oil pan is not finned because that’s not the most efficient way to cool its contents.
[file name=M20_oil_path.pdf size=89281]http://spece30.com/media/kunena/attachments/legacy/files/M20_oil_path.pdf[/file]
If I did it right, attached is the M20 oil path diagram from the factory manual. If I am reading it right, there is no mention of the oil cooler. Here’s my question: If the oil cooler is both supplied with oil and returning oil between the oil pump and the crank bearings/head (i.e. those parts with the tight tolerances that maintain the pressure created by the pump), how can there be a pressure drop attributable to the cooler?

#39

With respect to oil flow, oil from the pump flows through the filter and then either to the block or through the cooler and to the block depending on the state of the thermostat in the oil filter adapter. If the thermostat is open essentially all of the oil flow goes through the cooler.

I don’t have temperature data yet, but I do have logs of oil pressure. I’ll see if I can find a way to pull off a graph of oil pressure and engine rpm from one of last weekend’s races and post it. What I saw in the logs showed a very slight reduction in pressure over the course of the race. I don’t have a skid plate, but I do have a sizeable cooler and have modified the thermostat so the cooler operates full time.

#40

jlevie wrote:

Since hot pressures are what’s important, this is the condition I am interested in. What is the path for oil returning from the cooler?

If it drained to the pan, it would result in a pressure drop. If it is piped back in to the flow ahead of the bearings/head port, then there is no opportunity for that close loop to permit a pressure drop (aside from nominal flex in the hoses, I suppose).