nasaregistrar wrote:
XP-10s are not “Race Ready” and do require a bed-in procedure and will do better if you bed them in before using them.
Still, they do not last as long as HT-10s and that’s why I consider them to be expensive pads.
brake pads
Ranger
#24
What would you put on the rear?
I’ve been experimenting with higher bite pads on the rear in order to end up with more balanced brake bias. But there are some guys who intentionally unbalance their E30 brake bias even more then OEM. Like useing HT10’s in front and Hawk Blues in the rear. They say that the less aggressive pad in the rear helps them trailbrake deeper. I’d suggest, in contrast, that there’s nothing positive about grossly imbalanced brake bias.
But when I’m disagreeing with folks that are better then I am, I must tread with caution.
It’s hard to get brake torque data between competing company pads. Therefore it will be hard to get good info on how the DTC60, for example, compares to the PFC01. Heck, it isn’t even easy to get data within a single company, like comparing the DTC60 to the HT10.
I had a long series of emails with a Performance Friction guy that is tight with BimmerWorld racing. He really seemed to be an expert in slowing race cars down. His take was that it is important to have the same pad on all corners because you need the behavior of all corners to remain constant thru changing temperatures and pedal pressures.
He didn’t think much of my theory of fixing brake bias by using dissimilar pads. The expert disses the Scott-theory. Shocking.
ukrbmw
#25
I use 60s in the front and HT10s in the rear - but I’m not racing with you guys just yet, getting up to speed with the new car. I read a lot about using something with more bite in the front and so I’m curious why nobody uses something like this setup. Is it too much bite in the front?
I don’t mind how the car behaves, then again I’m nowhere near the times you guys are turning yet.
Ranger
#26
ukrbmw wrote:
[quote]I use 60s in the front and HT10s in the rear - but I’m not racing with you guys just yet, getting up to speed with the new car. I read a lot about using something with more bite in the front and so I’m curious why nobody uses something like this setup. Is it too much bite in the front?
I don’t mind how the car behaves, then again I’m nowhere near the times you guys are turning yet.[/quote]
You have to care about how the car behaves. How tempted are you to track a Ford Excursion? The difference between the two is “behavior”.
Your primary concern for choosing brake pads should be how they make the car behave. You want them to bite predictably, stop you just as fast as humanly possible and release predictably. Then there are additional issues that might suit a certain guys driving style, real or imagined.
The Performance Friction guy felt strongly about having the same pad F-R. Porsche racers put different pads F-R all the time to overcome the same OEM front bias problem that we have. The approaches contradict each other. Which shouldn’t surprise us because no one ever seems to agree with anyone else in this hobby. So getting at Truth is always hard.
So back to the DTC60. It is one of Hawk’s new “pressure bonded” pads. According to BHP this “pressure bonding” creates a pad that is structurally much stronger and therefore won’t crumble and chip on you. The BHP guy was involved in the creation of the Hawk DTC series of pads.
My “pressure bonded” BHP pads held up much better then HT10’s that are not pressure bonded. The BHP’s didn’t show the tendency to crack and crumble. I’ve not used the DTC60 pad.
Call up Hawk and badger them into giving you brake torque data (etc.) on the DTC60, HT10 and HT14. Since both the HT10 and HT14 are available for the SpecE30 rear, you can then make a decision on which rear pad to match with it. The HT14 has more bite then the HT10. Hawk calls the DTC60 “high” torque and the HT10 “Intermediate to high”. Therefore the DTC60’s braking torque might be similar to the HT14. But even if they are similar you still have to note “ramping” and “release” characteristics.
High initial bite pads don’t “ramp” up to higher torque numbers with increasing pedal pressure as much as lower initial bite pads. So high initial bite pads would “ramp” torque up in a more linear fashion the low initial bite pads. Pads can trail torque off on release smoothly or more abruptly. Different pad compounds also respond differently to increasing temps.
If you put DTC60’s on the front, anything you put on the rear is likely to have less torque. Except possiblly PFC01’s, and it would be nice to get data comparing those two. Therefore you will make the OEM brake bias problem worse, not better. Of course there are some folks who intentionally do that.
Ex36
#28
Holy crap, Scott, take a deep breath! I’ve put PFC01’s at all corners and been very happy with the way the car behaves. I recommend you slap a set on both ends and go racing!
Sasha
Ranger
#29
Sasha, once again you fail to take into account that I’m a whackjob. In an obsessed, yet endearing sort of way.
Ranger
#31
scottmc wrote:
[quote]Ranger wrote:
endearing to who?
:laugh:[/quote]
Endearing to Roebling Track Management.
Hey I heard that in the DE classroom last weekend the asshole that went flying behind the tower was the subject of much conversation. Sigh.
donstevens
#32
Ranger wrote:
Certainly in an entertaining sort of way…I was wondering where the Monkey talk was going. I figred it had something to do with sh*t.
Anyway, I happen to use Hawk HT-10s on the front and Blues on the rear. Not because I know what I am doing but more because I am a monkey see monkey do kind of guy. Although, there is little worry that I might fling sh*t at you. I use Hawks because a) most of the SE spec E30 guys use them and b) because of the contingency program (not that I’ll be getting any bucks from them anytime soon).
In over 20 years of dabbling around track cars, racing cars, and dual purpose (drive to the track, run the snot out of it, then drive back home)cars, I have used lots of different pads. Names like Ferodo, Mintex, PFC, Hawk, Pagid and Carbotek and have learned that when trying to decide on most any component “feel” is the most important point. It is easier to be fast in a car that “feels” good. Plus of course “feel” is as much a preference vs. what technical data like brake torque data may say. So, in my opinion it is perfectly logical that a driver (particularly a whacko like Scott) may like two different pads front to rear because a certain combination provides the “feel” the driver is looking for. Heck if you want to OCD about it you might as well go 4 different pads corner to corner too. Tech service guys be damned!
I should add that I was weary of the Hawks because of a bad experience I had 8-9 years or so ago. I had some Hawks on a 944 dual purpose car and they sucked. They sucked on the track, they sucked on the street, they were tough on the rotors, and they made a huge amount of highly corrosive dust that attacked the surface of the rims. 944s are known for excellent brakes but the brakes on my car sucked with Hawk pads (I don’t remember the model number/name).
Having said all of that, being the monkey that I a, I selected the Hawks I must say that I am very impressed with the performance of the Hawks on the Spec E30. They stop the car better than any E30 I have ever driven. They “feel” good to me, they seem to be holding up very well, the rotors are holding up better than I expected and even the dust is not too bad.
So I hope this novel helps the new guys with some information with which to make a decision and I hope it was entertaining to you veterans.
Don
Ranger
#33
donstevens wrote:
[quote]Ranger wrote:
Certainly in an entertaining sort of way…I was wondering where the Monkey talk was going. I figred it had something to do with sh*t.
Anyway, I happen to use Hawk HT-10s on the front and Blues on the rear. Not because I know what I am doing but more because I am a monkey see monkey do kind of guy. Although, there is little worry that I might fling sh*t at you. I use Hawks because a) most of the SE spec E30 guys use them and b) because of the contingency program (not that I’ll be getting any bucks from them anytime soon).
In over 20 years of dabbling around track cars, racing cars, and dual purpose (drive to the track, run the snot out of it, then drive back home)cars, I have used lots of different pads. Names like Ferodo, Mintex, PFC, Hawk, Pagid and Carbotek and have learned that when trying to decide on most any component “feel” is the most important point. It is easier to be fast in a car that “feels” good. Plus of course “feel” is as much a preference vs. what technical data like brake torque data may say. So, in my opinion it is perfectly logical that a driver (particularly a whacko like Scott) may like two different pads front to rear because a certain combination provides the “feel” the driver is looking for. Heck if you want to OCD about it you might as well go 4 different pads corner to corner too. Tech service guys be damned!
I should add that I was weary of the Hawks because of a bad experience I had 8-9 years or so ago. I had some Hawks on a 944 dual purpose car and they sucked. They sucked on the track, they sucked on the street, they were tough on the rotors, and they made a huge amount of highly corrosive dust that attacked the surface of the rims. 944s are known for excellent brakes but the brakes on my car sucked with Hawk pads (I don’t remember the model number/name).
Having said all of that, being the monkey that I a, I selected the Hawks I must say that I am very impressed with the performance of the Hawks on the Spec E30. They stop the car better than any E30 I have ever driven. They “feel” good to me, they seem to be holding up very well, the rotors are holding up better than I expected and even the dust is not too bad.
So I hope this novel helps the new guys with some information with which to make a decision and I hope it was entertaining to you veterans.
Don[/quote]
The problem with going with “feel” is the requirement that a person knows what they are doing. As opposed to, say, me. So I’ll getting back to my charts and graphs now I guess.
Ranger
#34
But speaking of using Hawk Blues on the rear, I have a (new) set that need a new home because I’m not going to use them. I’ll sell them for 3/4 of retail. Who wants them?
Later edit. Just talked to an engineer at Hawk. They are coming out with a DTC60 for our rear. Higher torque then the HT10 or HT14.
stevekappy
#35
nasaregistrar wrote:
[quote]Last weekend at CMP the BHP pads that were on the burgundy pace E30 finally ended their run, and I put on a set of what was later to be determined as XP-10’s ( came out of the spares bin and were not sure if they were in the correct box…They were Orange and a person in the know said orange = XP10)Anyhow, they lasted about 7 sessions!! at the end of Sunday, they were toast!!!
[/quote]
Did the car survive or is it toast too? 
Oh wait, I should have asked first if you were driving. I remember back to the 'Shen… 
Sorry Sean… I could not help myself…
[quote]
They felt great and there was plenty of STOP in them, but IMO they didn’t last too long. CMP is really hard on brakes though.[/quote]
I ran out of pads at the first VIR this year and decided to put on the brand new XP-10s I had from a couple of years back. I could not go as deep into turn one as I did with the HT-10 (ask me how I know) and bought the last set of HT-10s from CDOC.
-Steve