Bitching about RR's

#41

The fact that you don’t have to shave the RRs is a huge bonus in my book. It took me half a day to get tires shaved down here–there’s ONE shop an hour away that does it.

#42

The tire expense is ridiculous.
It is as if OUR race rules are being created by a tire company instead of racers.
How can we be giving as much money to a tire manufacturer as we give to NASA?
With a daughter about to start college, my “racing career” is in serious jeopardy.

#43

I got 6 heat cycles out of a set of RR’s before I corded 3/4 running at tracks where the previous RA1’s would have been competitive for 8 heat cycles and then been usable as practice tires. Dunno how carcass and compound play in that or how the ambients and track conditions might have been a factor. The RR’s were a bit faster, at least for the first 2, maybe 3, heat cycles, but no better than the previous RA1’s after that. I’m less than impressed by initial experience.

#44

That isn’t a consideration if you order tires from a supplier that can shave them.

#45

I don’t think anyone up in our region has seen that level of delta yet on equivalent heat cycle tires and I’m not aware of any track records begin broken yet up here.

The compound quote came directly from the Toyo engineer who introduced the tire at last years National.

#46

I think 1-2 seconds is about right. To date, we’ve had two events here in the NE, and track records were reset at both of them. I know my own times improved by approx that margin since last year at the same events, and I started both seasons on fresh tires.

#47

I don’t think anyone up in our region has seen that level of delta yet on equivalent heat cycle tires and I’m not aware of any track records begin broken yet up here.

The compound quote came directly from the Toyo engineer who introduced the tire at last years National.[/quote]

Both of the NJMP tracks have had the SE30 records broken this season, so in the NE region we are seeing faster laptimes for sure.

From a “gut feel” on these tires I don’t like them. The grip is nice, but the tires don’t seem as predictable as the RA-1. I can’t slide the car as consistently as I could with the RA-1, but not sure if that’s a good or bad thing. I guess I prefer the car looser and with more understeer than most guys. I’ve been playing around with tire pressures and it helped some. The two sets I have are wearing pretty evenly, but will start looking at tire temps and make adjustments if necessary.

As far as fighting back with Toyo and NASA on the spec tire…perhaps we need to get a full season in and go back to them with data. If we can gather appreciable data across regions that show the tires don’t last (or whatever other parameters are appropriate) perhaps we can force the hand. It will need to come from all of us though.

Just my $0.02

#48

Jim, if you car won’t get under 2400# you’re not doing it right! When I started, I was told “if it does not look like a race car take it off”, and that is what I do.

#49

If you look at the rules the RA-1 is still a legal tire to use in competition, shaved or otherwise. The first event this year in February I ran with my RA-1’s that had 6 heat cycles and when I got them they were shaved to 4/32. I was the only guy out of a 25 car field to run the RA-1s and in qual I was about 6 sec slower than the fastest guy who was running the RR’s. He was about 2 full seconds faster on the RR’s than he was with the RA-1’s. I was still able to beat several guys with the RR’s and finished in the teens.

This past weekend was my first weekend with the RR’s and my times improved about 1.5 seconds per lap. I like the tires and feel like they have more stability and allow me to run the car with the amount of camber that I can get without rolling. I finished in the top 10 out of 22 cars both days.

As for the price, they are about the same price per tire as the RA-1’s were to get shaved to the same 4/32’s about $165 each. So thats a wash in my opinion. I am kind of a tire NAZI too, I used to flip flop the RA-1’s after 6 heat cycles and run them for another 6 or about 4 weekends total then use them for warmups, or autocross, or something other than racing. I plan on trying the same with the RR’s The set I have now which were new for Qual on Saturday will get ran one more weekend then im going to flip them and see what happens.

#50

I don’t think anyone up in our region has seen that level of delta yet on equivalent heat cycle tires and I’m not aware of any track records begin broken yet up here.

The compound quote came directly from the Toyo engineer who introduced the tire at last years National.[/quote]

Both of the NJMP tracks have had the SE30 records broken this season, so in the NE region we are seeing faster laptimes for sure.

From a “gut feel” on these tires I don’t like them. The grip is nice, but the tires don’t seem as predictable as the RA-1. I can’t slide the car as consistently as I could with the RA-1, but not sure if that’s a good or bad thing. I guess I prefer the car looser and with more understeer than most guys. I’ve been playing around with tire pressures and it helped some. The two sets I have are wearing pretty evenly, but will start looking at tire temps and make adjustments if necessary.

As far as fighting back with Toyo and NASA on the spec tire…perhaps we need to get a full season in and go back to them with data. If we can gather appreciable data across regions that show the tires don’t last (or whatever other parameters are appropriate) perhaps we can force the hand. It will need to come from all of us though.

Just my $0.02[/quote]

Jeff, Don’t slide the RR’s you’ll be faster and they will wear better. The RA-1 had a larger slip angle , hence why it slid. The RR’s have a smaller slip angle. You have to drive the tire and be smooth, you will be rewarded for both. Also make sure you are coming off the track at 38-40 hot…<-------- very important !!

#51

Truth!

Sounds as if the RRs like a driving style very similar to the Hoosier R6/SM6 (the tire that was pretty obviously the “target” Toyo was using). You still have to drive them very hard to wring the last out of them, but not sliding. Attack the brake zones, go much deeper. The biggest difference I noticed from RA-1 to SM6 was how much more speed scrubbed from turn in to apex with the SM6. Using the same braking points/style (but hopefully not style points :woohoo: ), I was no faster with the Hoosier. Once I carried more speed in the first part of the turn, my lap times dropped.

#52

Phil,
Are you sure about that HOT tire pressure?

Since I have been on the RR tires all season & also ran them on the TFB car during the 25hrs, I can openly share the following:

  1. Cost is about the same as shaved RA1’s (more expensive if you weren’t accustomed to shaving)
  2. Very fast new, very fast should you scrub first then qualify.
  3. Your quickest lap times can still be found between 8-12 heat cycles.
  4. They are confidence inspiring…Just drive them harder.
  5. They are consistent & predictable throughout a race.
  6. I did chord 1 tire of a matching set after 15 heat cycles.

For many, spend more time figuring out this tire & drive to the tire.

Hope to see all of you at Miller.

#53

[quote=“Steve Ferrario” post=72567]Phil,
Are you sure about that HOT tire pressure?

Since I have been on the RR tires all season & also ran them on the TFB car during the 25hrs, I can openly share the following:

  1. Cost is about the same as shaved RA1’s (more expensive if you weren’t accustomed to shaving)
  2. Very fast new, very fast should you scrub first then qualify.
  3. Your quickest lap times can still be found between 8-12 heat cycles.
  4. They are confidence inspiring…Just drive them harder.
  5. They are consistent & predictable throughout a race.
  6. I did chord 1 tire of a matching set after 15 heat cycles.

For many, spend more time figuring out this tire & drive to the tire.

Hope to see all of you at Miller.[/quote]

Yes, Im sure. I will say this though. Tire pressure should be set with a tire pyrometer…always.

Here is some basic tire info.

The more (higher) pressure you can handle (drive fast and competitive) the quicker you will be on the track. Higher pressure results in less rolling resistance. Don’t confuse less rolling resistance with less grip. With a R comp tire actually, if you need grip you ADD air, not take it away. Basically if the car is not loose, not lose control loose but it rotates nicely loose, you are not going fast enough.

#54

Im not here to bitch about the RR tire, because it is hands down a better tire. From my experience with them, which has been only a few races, i love them. I have run laps with track temps in the 40’s and just this past weekend with track temps in the 90’s as well as in a 12 hour enduro. People have to realize that it is a different tire, where setup and driving style has to change. Without the change you cannot compare to the RA1. I have over 5 heat cycles on a set with great wear and speed still in them.

If you have a problem with the RRs, buy a set from Phil. I heard he puts special air into every tire, good for a few more tenths.

Peter Thibault

#55

Truth!

Sounds as if the RRs like a driving style very similar to the Hoosier R6/SM6 (the tire that was pretty obviously the “target” Toyo was using). You still have to drive them very hard to wring the last out of them, but not sliding. Attack the brake zones, go much deeper. The biggest difference I noticed from RA-1 to SM6 was how much more speed scrubbed from turn in to apex with the SM6. Using the same braking points/style (but hopefully not style points :woohoo: ), I was no faster with the Hoosier. Once I carried more speed in the first part of the turn, my lap times dropped.[/quote]

That’s interesting steve–the 944 guys who ran them last year were saying that grip in the brake zones was equivalent to the RA, but it was the lateral grip that was improved which makes sense if its the same compound but different construction, no? So you are finding more grip in a straightline too?

#56

I haven’t run the RRs. I was trying to make a comparison of my experience going from RA1 >> R6, which sounds similar to the driving style changes people find necessary when going RA1 >> RR.

#57

Any recommendations for target tire temps on the RRs?

#58

[quote=“Fred42” post=72576][quote=“philstireservice” post=72568]
Yes, Im sure. I will say this though. Tire pressure should be set with a tire pyrometer…always.

[/quote]

Any recommendations for target tire temps on the RRs?[/quote]

180-200…across the tread. Take temps in 3 places, outside, middle, inside. Make sure you use a probe type pyrometer. Ideally the inside would be hotter than the outside and the middle would be an average of the two.

#59

Nope, not special air…Lizzy, his pup. She licks every one before they are loaded in the trailer. Her saliva softens the rubber up like tire treatment. :silly:

#60

Talked to a 944S friend last night. FWIW, they are running a wider tire on the same sized rim in a 100lb lighter car.

He says the early tires had a HUGE problem with splitting (75%) it seemed to be limited to their size and just the early tires. The newer tires are better.

He and the others that are competitive with him are also finding that the tires are good for no more than 3 weekends, but he thinks they are fast all the way up to 15+ heat cycles. He suspects proper scrub in (i.e. let them rest for 24 hours or more) might be the key.