Bitching about RR's

#1

The old RA1 was good for 3 weekends easy. Heck, they weren’t all that bad in the 4th or 5th weekend. They didn’t really entirely suck until they corded.

The later RA1 was not as good. They started sucking on Sunday of the 3rd weekend and you’d be 2secs slow. There was no way you could get a 4th weekend out of them.

This RR is worse yet. I just tried to run them their third weekend. They’d give a couple laps 1sec slow, and gradually get worse until they were >2sec slow. By the end of the Sunday race they were 3sec slow.

The old RA1 was prob a 4 weekend tire. The later RA1 was, imo, just barely a 3 weekend tire. That change of formula significantly increased our tire costs. The RR is a 2 weekend tire. That means $350/weekend of tire costs, once you account for shipping and mounting.

Stating the obvious, it’s the cost of this sport that keeps it’s numbers down. Ok, there’s those that are uncomfortable with being pawed at by girls where ever we are recognized, but mostly it’s the cost. We are going the wrong direction with tires and it’s NASA doing it to us.

The fun is big fields of close racing. Lower costs would mean bigger fields. A tire that lasted as long as the old RA1 could bring us back to our heyday when every race had >20 participants and some had >30.

Thunder Roadsters get a whole season out of a set of tires. We have to buy 5 sets to make it thru a season. No wonder their numbers have been going up in the SE.

NASA foisted the RR on to us w/o warning nor discussion. In doing so they hurt the series because higher costs equal lower participation. We are NASAs customers and we should be bitching about this. Maybe our complaints will find traction and be of some use, and maybe they won’t. But if we don’t bitch, we certainly won’t get anywhere on the issue.

#2

This matches my experience so far.

#3

Depends on whether you want to run up front or not. Race tires should have under 8-10 HEAT CYCLES. A heat cycle is ANY time on the track at speed. NEVER run the same set of tires twice in a race during the weekend. One set to qualify, another set to race. Qualify again on the first set, another set to race. Tire management is the key to winning!

So,the math…three sets of tires for the year. For me, with Hoosiers, 3K…not counting tires won…for 6 double weekend races and two single. So 14 races, 14 Q sessions…tire cost <$110 session. Entry fee, about $100/session. Pretty damn cheap if you ask me.

#4

[quote=“cwbaader” post=72463]Depends on whether you want to run up front or not. Race tires should have under 8-10 HEAT CYCLES. A heat cycle is ANY time on the track at speed. NEVER run the same set of tires twice in a race during the weekend. One set to qualify, another set to race. Qualify again on the first set, another set to race. Tire management is the key to winning!

So,the math…three sets of tires for the year. For me, with Hoosiers, 3K…not counting tires won…for 6 double weekend races and two single. So 14 races, 14 Q sessions…tire cost <$110 session. Entry fee, about $100/session. Pretty damn cheap if you ask me.[/quote]
14 races is 7 weekends for us. $3k for 7 weekends of tires isn’t cheap to me. With the old RA1’s, 2 sets of tires would have made 7 weekends easy, so $1300.

We get all excited about having more tire so we’ll be faster. But faster is crap because more tire just makes us all faster so nothing changes. Except that we also all become broker. We could have the same great fun on tires that are 4sec/lap slower. Except that we’d save thousands of dollars/yr and maybe our fields would be 1/2 again larger.

#5

Suggest a tread wear minimum, such as 200. That way NASA can still get paid by the tire manufacturer.

#6

Looks like 2 weekends per set.

Lovely,

RP

#7

[quote=“Ranger” post=72458]The old RA1 was good for 3 weekends easy…

[editorial insert]You missed a perfectly good opportunity to talk about how awful the 888 was.[/editorial insert]

The later RA1 was not as good…

This RR is worse yet…[/quote]
The one variable that is very tough to control for is the fact that most of us get better each year, pushing the tires harder than before. Ceteris paribus, the same tire will degrade more quickly as the driver gets better at wringing every last bit out of it.

Some of what you are experiencing is that YOU are faster. Some is that the tires are arguably worse in terms of consistency across a dozen heat cycles.

In NASA’s defense, the Toyo contingency program beats the snot out of other manufacturers’ plans – especially for the mid-packers.

On the other hand, NASA seems tied to Toyo whether or not it is the racers’ choice for tires.

Spec Miata in SCCA is on SM6/R6 Hoosiers again and “front row” folks who ran them years ago and again now say that they are not lasting as long.

I don’t know if environmental regs have changed the compounds but it is interesting that two manufacturers experience the same symptom over the same time period.

#8

In my experience that is a bit of a stretch. I saw the tires fall off each session after the first two.

#9

Re. I’m faster. If only it was true. I’m actually quite a bit slower. Is irksome.

Re. Toyo contingency. I went and looked at that an hour ago and it’s a good point. The contingency dollars go deep. That does indeed take some of the sting out of it.

The most recent rumor I heard re. tires that “aren’t what they used to be” had to do with the additive silica and CA environmental laws. The state must have 2000 miles of beaches and my tires suck because they don’t like sand?

#10

Treadwear ratings don’t mean much to race tire guys. If they really wanted to they can make it say whatever they want within the rules of that test.

Oh, and I used them for the first time at ABCC. I had significant blue-ing of the tires on the outside. Anyone else find this? That usually meant I was overheating the tire, but the track and outside temps couldn’t have been more than 40F.

#11

In my experience that is a bit of a stretch. I saw the tires fall off each session after the first two.[/quote]
Has anyone tried a Hoosier-esque tire management program? Check out their recommended routine here: Hoosier SM6 tire page

In a nutshell, run them for 10-15 minutes starting easy, building up to one final 10/10ths lap. Put them away for 1 week or longer. This helps make happy little tire molecules or some such sh*t.

Given that the RR is a ripoff of the R6/SM6, who knows…

When I did this years ago with the R6/SM6, I did see much more consistency over a greater number of cycles. The down side is that you have to use Saturday practice to cure the next event’s tires. Or buy another session from Pantas sometime during the weekend.

#12

Or, if buying from Tirerack, pay an extra $15/tire and have them heat cycled.

#13

In my experience that is a bit of a stretch. I saw the tires fall off each session after the first two.[/quote]
Has anyone tried a Hoosier-esque tire management program? Check out their recommended routine here: Hoosier SM6 tire page

In a nutshell, run them for 10-15 minutes starting easy, building up to one final 10/10ths lap. Put them away for 1 week or longer. This helps make happy little tire molecules or some such sh*t.

Given that the RR is a ripoff of the R6/SM6, who knows…

When I did this years ago with the R6/SM6, I did see much more consistency over a greater number of cycles. The down side is that you have to use Saturday practice to cure the next event’s tires. Or buy another session from Pantas sometime during the weekend.[/quote]

You got it, we’re always looking to spend more money on spare wheels and/or spare weekends. I’m resolved to get 3 weekends out of 'em and just race who ever is around me.

I’ll suggest to Pantas three awards:
1-3 on new tires
1-3 on two week tires
1-3 on three week tires

That ,along with some other awards (oldest racer, female racer, least amount of hair racer) should about cover the field so that noone is excluded.

RP

#14

Three sets of wheels:

  • current dry set
  • next dry set
  • rain tires

It doesn’t require any more weekends, just remembering to mount your “next dry set” when you leave the house so they are on the car for Saturday morning warm-up. Then (contrary to Baader’s advice) run the “current dry set” the rest of the weekend (and the next one or two).

#15

[quote=“jlevie” post=72477]Or, if buying from Tirerack, pay an extra $15/tire and have them heat cycled.[/quote]That’s probably not 10/10ths, but can’t hurt. Do they accept Toyo Bucks?

#16

Too bad we cant use those nice, safe ,cheap factory alloys for all those tires…

#17

Yes they do, but not at wholesale price, if you have a wholesale account.

#18

Scott, with what you have spent on motors, I can’t imagine your complaining about tires:sick:

#19

Chortle. I love you guys. You’re gonna get me all misty-eyed.

#20

I have beat this horse on a couple of other threads…I vote with my $$$ have not bought any new Toyo’s in 3 years. they don’t care because they sell twice as many tires anyways…I run on 200 treadwear in CHUMP and contrary to what tire dealers say there are not any problems…I saw some TOYO T1R’s on a S2000 at CMP last weekend.

I also had this discussion with someone from another spec series with another sanctioning body, his attitude was that if your budget did not allow for fresh tires every weekend you should not be racing…of course they have a 4 car class consistently. Remember Gasman’s comment to the guy bitching about having to buy a spec exhaust? He said if someone could not afford it he would be afraid to race with them. That is the attitude that runs people away, checkbook racing.

All I can do is to continue to run old tires, doubt NASA or TOYO is paying attention. The tires I ran on the rear of my car Saturday were 2004 full tread RA-1’s…

Al