2012 Minimum Weight

#41

I’ll repeat what I said earlier, but with a bit more detail.

My car is an 88 325is coupe. It has no tar or sound deadening anywhere (in the cabin, in the trunk, in the engine bay, on the roof, or underneath). The sunroof has been removed (and just the outer skin welded in) as have the windows. Power steering, etc., have been removed and it runs with no spare. The cage does have NASCAR bars on both sides (and gutted doors), cross bracing behind the main hoop, a dash bar, and foot protection.

It does have a heater core and it runs off an Optima Red top. It also has the big SPA AFFF fire bottle. Since I want it to be street legal, it has headlights. With a full 986 System and Racetech seat the car needs 10lb of ballast to hit minimum weight starting from a full tank. And my weight is is 153lb. Finding another 40lb to remove without compromising safety and abiding by the rules would be difficult, to say the least. The same car with a heavier driver would have more problems.

I attribute most of the weight difference between my car an a “light” car to be the cage, fire system, and seat. But having experienced total destruction of a car, those are safety features that I believe are necessary. The heater core (and defroster) can be thought of as a safety feature on a wet track on a cool day. As can the 986 System on a hot day.

The problem with reducing the weight further is that some cars, for whatever reason, won’t be able to hit minimum weight. If the car still has trunk tar or a spare, that is one thing, but if none of that applies or the driver is heavy that is entirely a different thing. Reducing the weight further would result in an unfair advantage for those that can. So it isn’t likely to happen.

A reduction of 50lbs isn’t going to make much difference in tire life. That is more governed by the number of heat cycles the tires see. It might make a very slightly difference in brake pad life, but I suspect that better braking technique and carrying more speed through corners makes more difference in pad life.

#42

[quote=“Z3SpdDmn” post=61093][quote=“Ranger” post=61090]

Who carries >100lb of ballast with a full tank of gas in order to make weight after a 40min race?
[/quote]
I am carrying 125 lbs (max allowed) and running a full tank. Go back to post #1 for the details.[/quote]
That’s amazing. It would be interesting to understand why the weight delta.

IMO this issue often is built on a desire to make our cars faster, even if it’s not openly expressed. But it’s not about faster, it’s about cheap, easy and equal.

#43

“Don’t waste all that time and effort then. Also don’t you have the advantage of moving that weight around some, plus its low to the ground.”

Come on Simon, don’t waste time and effort? I would build any car to the absolute extent of the rules, because it’s racing, it’s competition. That is just the way I am wired.

It’s clear that some people have developed there cars to be lighter than others, and we could start listing parts that have been removed until we are blue in the face, but I really don’t have the energy, some racers have diligently dissected their racecars to prep them for racing and some clearly have not. You guys win.

#44

[quote]
That’s amazing. It would be interesting to understand why the weight delta.

IMO this issue often is built on a desire to make our cars faster, even if it’s not openly expressed. But it’s not about faster, it’s about cheap, easy and equal.[/quote]
Me too. I honestly didn’t realize that I was the outlier.

I mentioned clearly in my initial post the reasons for this proposal. I don’t like going fast, anyway.

#45

I don’t think Anthony’s car is that big of an outlier. Both our cars are '87 2-doors, well built X-brace cages (different builders), and both cars are about as gutted as your going to find while keeping the power windows. He runs 125lbs of ballast, I run 90lbs, and I weight about 25lbs more than Anthony.

For the guys with the stronger cages, I would like to see them. Not for the sake of arguing over this topic, but just to see differences in cage designs.

#46

Nate I get that, I really do. But if you don’t have to because you have already reached min weight, then great no need to work to get every little bit of weight off. If you do you now have the added flexibility of more weight to corner weight and a lower cg.

#47

Also McMahon cage

http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb218/simonh01/Spec%20E30%20cage/

As I already mentioned the only thing I can remove is the windows, everything else is gone except the small stuff. The simple fact is there is a 100lb difference in weight between a 150lb man and a 250lb man you can’t get around that and if you drop the weight more you are basically excluding some people from making min weight. 50lbs just isn’t going to make much of a difference anyway. I guess everyone saw the dramatic savings in tire wear and drop in lap times this year :dry:.

#48

I’m pretty heavy at 230 and my car is very light. I run 95 lbs ballast, and a spare tire to reach a starting weight of 2740. I like the added flexibility of placing my ballast where needed. Simon makes a great point about not excluding people by reducing the weight further. In a budget minded series like ours, we need a stable set of rules that encourages new racers to join us. IMO, 2700 seems to be easy to achieve for everyone and where the rules should stay.

#49

Can’t resist weighing in (get it) on this silly subject.

Go to Wendys. Order a triple-cheese, baconator and enjoy this race series at 2700.

At 2700 you have a great opportunity to “maximize” your car, and gain a competitive advantage.Gut it to the extent of the rules that you can. Strategically place your ballast (hint hint: toward the rear of the car). Start every race with a full tank of fuel (hint hint: weight at the rear of the car).Laugh as you pass the lazy racers that haven’t taken their horns off the car. (Oops,if the rules don’t say you can, then…what you took off the horns?) Laugh at the racers with power windows. (Gotta love REAL windows for outside storage).

Actually, for the Maximizers, looks like a bump back to 2750 would be ideal.

Finally, when you think you’ve really got it going-on we’ll call Skeen or Cobetto and have 'em race in a POS to show us all how its done. Ouch, can’t believe I said that.

RP

#50

Our 91 318is LeMons car weighs 2197 and we have a full fire suppression system, full XL seat with head restraint, and a cage with NASCAR bars. And it drives like a dream, very fun!

My 91 Se30 carries 100lbs ballast, full spare, full tank, large battery, and I get laughed at every time I weigh because of all the ballast I have bolted in the car. Tech always thinks it is ridiculous that we have to carry so much ballast in our cars.

I vote for at least a 50 lb reduction, I know these cars can easily be 2300 w/o driver.

-Rius
SoCal Se30

#51

You didn’t mention how much you weighed, what kind of cage do you have?

#52

You didn’t mention how much you weighed, what kind of cage do you have?[/quote]

I weigh 160, I have a light cage, Autopower with extra welded in door bars. The lighter the car, the lighter the cage can be as well. My car still has most of the electrical harnessing and tar in the trunk, too.
But like I mentioned before, we can get these cars under 2300 lb by stripping it out to the bones, it is a race car after all.

#53

For any of you guys that say another 50lb drop should be easy, I’d love to have you dig around in my car and show me where I can easily get rid of that much weight. It’s an open invitation.

Matt

#54

My car is an 87 2door picked clean and I am willing to let anyone look for another 50 lbs. I’m 215, add 10lb fire system and hand extinguisher, NASCAR bars drivers side. I have to choose between a cool shirt or spare and carry 2-3 gallons less than full fuel (depending on scales) to make 2700±10. This already leaves me no ballast to work with.

Vote NO!

#55

It must be the later model cars that are lighter. I have a '91 2-door and run 25lbs of ballast, windows, intact doors, and heater core. While I’ve removed all tar and deadening I’ve definitely got more weight I could pull out.

I’m no lightweight at ~195#. With 1/2 tank of gas and everything listed I check in around 2710#.

I’m certainly not against lowering the weight, but based on the responses it doesn’t sound like it’s necessary. I’m good either way.

#56

[quote=“Matt H.” post=61139]For any of you guys that say another 50lb drop should be easy, I’d love to have you dig around in my car and show me where I can easily get rid of that much weight. It’s an open invitation.

Matt[/quote]
Matt, I’ll be in Huntsville the week after Thanksgiving. I may take you up on that, just out of genuine curiosity. It’s easy to see that this rule will not be changed, but I would still like to understand some of the differences between the cars…

#57

I’m 230 and have an 89 with fire system, passenger seat, big battery. I would love to try and drop another 50. I think that is part of the fun in racing is trying to maximize rules. It doesn’t cost anything to get rid of the weight (assuming you’re not being an idiot and sacrificing safety). I vote yes and I’m heavy and broke;)

#58

[quote=“Z3SpdDmn” post=61142][quote=“Matt H.” post=61139]For any of you guys that say another 50lb drop should be easy, I’d love to have you dig around in my car and show me where I can easily get rid of that much weight. It’s an open invitation.

Matt[/quote]
Matt, I’ll be in Huntsville the week after Thanksgiving. I may take you up on that, just out of genuine curiosity. It’s easy to see that this rule will not be changed, but I would still like to understand some of the differences between the cars…[/quote]

I am beginning to think that the main difference between the cars in the cage and the year of the car. it deff sounds like the early models are heavy, the weights are listed in the back of the Regualations. However as far as cages go, i chose my builder because he advertised the lightest cage around, and the least vision restricted on the A-pillers. Maybe some other builders went with slightly larger tubes, or added more bars around the car and so forth. with that, i still vote lighter is better, but its really hard to tell the people that built heavy cages that their cars are no longer competitive. Doesn’t sound like this rule change will fly to me, even though i want my car as light as possible.

We run our lemons car completely gutted, no windows except front, no tar anywhere, but still a heater core and we have a wing on the back and that car rails. could easily pass on the outside of turn 2 at thunder hill. I wish we were allowed to run a wing. Every real race car has a wing. We should decide on a spec wing!

#59

I don’t know what the number is, cause I don’t know how light you can make these cars (sans safety and driver), and I appreciate the argument that you don’t want to loose drivers due to weight rules or require drivers to skimp on safety, but this is racing so it doesn’t make sense to “punish” those who choose to build a car to the max of the rules.

Can we agree on the lightest you can get these cars gutting to the limtit of the rules? Take that number, add in a 250lb driver (so nobody gets excluded), add in a reasonable number for cage (I don’t know that number either) and other reasonable safety (1 seat, harness, nets, fire system), and a full tank of gas (cause everyone seems to agree that’s needed for best balance). Add em all up and what do you get?

Assuming we can agree on the variables, that formula gives you the lightest car that is still safe and doesn’t exclude fluffy drivers. If you want to skimp on safety, that’s your business–reap the benefits of using ballast. You want to skimp on prep and leave windows and tar and stuff in the car, that’s your business–take the chance that the extra weight makes you uncompetitive.

Oversimplifying? Probably!

#60

I could probably get to a lower weight by, some mentioned earlier:

Remove tar in trunk.
run smaller battery (red top Optima)
Remove Radio
Remove Traqmate (but did already remove stock dash)
Remove Oil cooler
Remove Strut brace
run tires shaved to 1/32 saves 8 lbs
run less gas
diet/exercise (lose 40lb, but hate my life)
reduce size of feet on cage, no bars to remove, already some think my cage is too light
remove a few more wires from harness.
Move lighter battery to Passenger foot well and run much shorter Battery cable
run lighter rear view mirror,
remove camera and mount
run smallest Fire extinguisher thats legal
remove front and rear sway bar links
run shaved rotors and pads
run no spacers
run shorter studs
run 1 qt less oil
run brake fluid reservoir at Min.
run smaller radiator

Just a few ideas. So yah I could lose weight, but:

my car will not be as Safe
less reliable
more expensive to operate in consumables
less conveinence and comfort
no communication
no video for learning and evidence
handling compromises
risk to engine failures or shortened life
no data to learn from
less rear visibility
more front weight bias
less chance of survival in serious fire or impact.

I am not in a quandry as to how to, or can we, lighten the car. If that is the only concern then yes, we can probably lighten everyones cars. IS that the main objective of this series?

So can we? Sure

Should we?

The powers that be, will have to decide. And then those of us who chose to run in the series will have to decide based on the rule set, whether we wish to or not. You probably know my preference, I don’t like changes Because I don’t want to rebuild my car each year. I want rule stability so I can do maintenance, Practice, Race, have fun, do a little tweaking, and then go to work, and hang out with my family. There are series we could run in that will absorb all our time chasing the perfect car.

My extra 2 cents.