Toyo R888 Wear

#121

The heat in the tire doesn’t know when to stop…:ohmy:

#122

more spec miata talk about the r888: http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/2/4297.html

#123

Lots of 888 fans over there. I’m not the fastest guy out there but am running a set of them with over 20 cycles on them (they were full depth new) and while not as sticky as they were when they were prime, they are still usable to me. This will be a telling year in terms of wear patterns and lap times as we get to know them better. One common thread I noticed is that they may wear/go off a lot faster on higher temp track surfaces.

#124

I think a couple things are driving the incessant R888 bitch-fest at specmiata.com:

  • The RA1 on a Miata would tolerate a high slip-angle driving style very well; the R888 doesn’t. I don’t think folks have given themselves enough time to adjust their driving style.
  • The SCCA runoffs are at a real race track this year (Road America) so even more people are attending ‘national’ races to accumulate points. This creates more people who are apoplectic when they can’t run an 18 lap race with lap times within 0.2 sec of their qualifying times.
  • The R888s seem to drop off after a few heat cycles. I haven’t heard whether anyone has had success doing a Hoosier-esque seasoning (one heat cycle, then inflate to 45 psi, leave them for a week, then they are nice and consistent). Without that type of seasoning, the Hoosiers behaved just like the R888 (good for 3-4 cycles, then fell off 0.5+sec/lap).
  • Interesting that the R888 seems to work better on the heavier and more powerful cars. Maybe that’s because they don’t expect their tires to last more than a few sessions anyway.

There’s a huge benefit to NASA’s decision making process compared to SCCA. SCCA does a tire test, invites lots of drivers and tire companies, collects data, then selects the company willing to write the biggest check (allegedly). NASA says “Toyo has supported us for a long time. They make a decent tire. Let’s use it.” A benevolent dictatorship has its advantages.

But if we start going through a set a weekend, I reserve the right to complain.:wink:

Steve D.

#125

Steve D wrote:

[quote] then selects the company willing to write the biggest check (allegedly). NASA says “Toyo has supported us for a long time. They make a decent tire. Let’s use it.” A benevolent dictatorship has its advantages.

But if we start going through a set a weekend, I reserve the right to complain.:wink:

Steve D.[/quote]

You don’t think Toyo’s checkbook is helping that decision in NASA? I’ve been pretty underwhelmed by the R888’s and Toyo’s responsiveness, and their policy on enduros.

I don’t have a benchmark to compare since this is my only ‘big time’ racing experience so I’ll defer to your cross cultural observations but I bet $$$$ always has something to do with it - in series selection and in how a tire is made / lasts…

#126

IndyJim wrote:

[quote]Steve D wrote:

You don’t think Toyo’s checkbook is helping that decision in NASA?[/quote]

I wasn’t clear. I DO think Toyo’s checkbook is involved in both sanctioning bodies’ choices. I just think SCCA’s farce of a “tire test” is a very disingenuous way of trying to cover up the real decision criteria. At least NASA doesn’t try to cover up what is essentially a decision about what is in their best interest (but may not be in the racers’ best interest).

Steve D.

#127

As the tires wear down, start doing your cool down lap in the marbles. You will pick up enough rubber for a few more sessions :stuck_out_tongue:

#128

I thought it was interesting that several of the posters there still look at SM as an entry level class and therefore are looking for a durable tire to keep the costs low while keeping performance consistent across more heat cycles. Since both SM and SE30 are spec classes, cost of ownership (within an acceptable range of performance of course) should drive the specification. Especially in this economy when it’s going to be tough to grow/maintain the numbers anyway. Low cost, low cost, low cost…

Interesting also the sentiment about the contingencies for the top drivers, that it rewards the few at the expense of the many. If we are paying a premium on tires so there can be a contingency program that only rewards the top 5, then for the long term good of this series should consider a different tire that has adequate performance and a fair price point for the good of the majority of owner/drivers.

Just two cents from the peanut gallery…

#129

9d3 wrote:

[quote]I thought it was interesting that several of the posters there still look at SM as an entry level class …
[/quote]

Bear in mind that “entry level” and “low cost” are in the eye of the beholder. I know a couple guys in SM who race there because Grand Am doesn’t race frequently enough. SM is cheaper than that, at least. I also know guys who tow with the wife’s minivan and race a couple times a year. Their ideas of low cost are pretty different.

I always snicker when I hear the 20-race-per-year toterhome crowd complaining about their tire budgets.

Steve D.

#130

I’m still in the camp that I think the tires are ok but not great. I have yet to see the problems they have had though. Frankly I still haven’t done enough testing. These are more thoughts in no particular order and things I will be looking out for.

  1. The times there have been the most complaints are when it is hot out. If you remember we had the same problem when guys first tried these tires at Roebling Road. I think the combination of high heat and too high pressure could be really bad for these tires. I need more data though, I’m just guessing. The only reason I ran slightly lower pressures is because they went off quickly when I ran my normal pressures the first time I ran them. I lowered them and they were fine, it was only a psi or 2 but it seemed to make a difference.

  2. Heat cycling. Is it possible these tires are as sensitive to heat cycling as say Hooisers. The RA1’s seemed to be impervious to heat cycling and pretty much any abuse you could give them. I’ve heat cycled all the R888’s that I have run just in case so I don’t know if that is helping me or not, but maybe it is?

  3. Tracks. I don’t have much data at any other tracks other than Mid Ohio. At Mid Ohio they got faster as they got worn in. Which is similiar to the RA1. this might be different at other tracks I should get more data from a track like Putnam which is very hard on left fronts. But I think Mid Ohio might be slightly unique in its tire wear characterstics. I think we need to monitor performance on hot days at other tracks. I guess we’ll have to see what happens at Road Atlanta in august.

  4. Even wear. The miata guys seemed to be trying to get even wear. I have just put them at a pressure that seems to work and have noticed that the wear might not be completely even. Is that the ticket who knows but generally I wear the center of the tire first at the pressures I’m running. Jason Saini was talking about this on the spec miata board and his hot pressures were right in the range where my tires were going off.

  5. Used tires. I have quite a few sets that have now sat over the winter it will be interesting to see if they have any life in them or if they are going to be complete junk. First event again will be at Mid Ohio so I’m not sure how much that will tell me.

The spec miata guys certainly have me nervous, but the initial outcry was the same as we had here from the southeast guys are Roebling. The jury is still out, I wish we could just run the RA1. Again we need more data so everyone needs to start taking notes on heat cycles and pressures etc.

#131

I only got 7 sessions on them before cords. (remember MidO Simon?)

#132

jlucas wrote:

Yes but I had more heat cycles on mine than you, so what is the difference? Why did yours cord after 7 sessions? Did you heat cycle them and what pressures did you run? I just checked the garage here is what I have, nearly all this is at Mid Ohio.

Set 1 - Shaved to 4/32, they are about to cord they have 12 heat cycles 4 of which were races. I could do a qualifying session on these but that is about it. They were very fast near cord.

Set 2 - Shaved to 4/32, they have 6 heat cycles 1 of which was a race. They look pretty good and I expect to get about 7 more heat cycles and a couple of races at least.

Set 3 - Shaved to 3/32, ran at Nationals they have 4 heat cycles, 1 qualifying race and the final race. They look ok, probably good for at least 1 more race and some more practice. One of the tires has a little strange wear in the middle.

So although I don’t think they last quite as long as RA1’s I have so far been satisfied with their performance. As I noted before though Mid Ohio might contribute to the decent wear but then Jeremy only got 7 heat cycles and corded before I did so who knows. There is definitely a problem somewhere because noone has ever complained of the RA1’s wearing out quickly but now we have cases of where they wear out quickly or just heat cycle out quickly. I’m really starting to think a proper heat cycle helps these tires and I’m really too afraid to try to not heat cycling as I have had decent wear. I’ll try to get some pictures up soon of the 3 sets.

#133

I’ll add my .02 I always bought my RA1s used. I would get them with only a couple heat cycles, and 90% thread left on shaved tires. I could run these almost all year doing 5 or 6 DE weekends a year. At CMP last month, I used my old RA1s from last year for comp school and Saturday practice. Then my brother ran them all weekend. The R888s I bought from Skeen had 4 heat cycles on them. I put on another 3 over the weekend. During the 45 min. Sunday race they fell off a little, but one of my fastest laps of the race was late. I looked at them this past weekend and have no problems running them at RA. I will probably run a old set of RA1 for practice, but the only unusual wear I encountered was having the R888s roll over past the wear indicators a little bit!!! but I think I started the pressures to low, first weekend on R888s

they did tend to get loose, but I liked it!!

#134

Set 1

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#135

Set 2

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#136

Set 3 sorry I took this on the car I’m lazy :slight_smile:

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#137

[quote]Elephant4 wrote:
Yes but I had more heat cycles on mine than you, so what is the difference? Why did yours cord after 7 sessions? Did you heat cycle them and what pressures did you run? [/quote]
I was referencing the cords at the end of the race on my car. Yes, they had a heat cycle done during a practice session (so the pace of it could be controlled better) and they were allowed to sit a day before being used again. IIRC, we were shooting for 38 hot. Some of it may have to do with driving style and how much the tires get slid around or maybe they are more pressure sensitive than we think, or maybe the compounding batches are not consistent. I seem to recall Toyo has had that problem before (definitely Kumho did).

I told National last fall that people were not happy about the tires but without more info it’s hard to make a case. I was going to better job of tracking them this season and then provide them with the tire logs.

#138

quotes from the SM disucssion:

“Any and all who have concerns about the R888, please email Jerry Kunzman. He has input with Toyo and he told me to have specific concerns about the 888 emailed to him. jerry@drivenasa.com.”

“Please start taking some good notes…
DOT codes, shave depth, heat cycles, time on tire, ambient temps, setup info, pressures etc. Keep a good log and if there’s and issue we have some documentation rather than… “these tires suck”.
I’ll be running my first set in a couple weeks. I will record as much data as I can.
When you have this data, post it here but also forward to CRB and SMAC as well as the NASA contacts…
jerry AT drivenasa.com and cc competition AT drivenasa.com”

SM thread for data: http://forum.specmiata.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/2/4299.html#000000
Track
Heat Cycles
Total Laps
Total Time
Cold Pressure
Hot Pressure
DOT Codes
Camber
Pyro Readings
Shave
Lap times
Driver Comments on tire feel
Other comments that you feel are relevant

#139

I use to run a wholesale tire warehouse for Am-Pac Tire in Nashville from the sales side. I can tell you that there is a rubber compound diffrence between the RA-1 and the R-888. The R-888 is a softer compound which means better grip but shorter life. Last summer I bought a set and went to Barber’s for a HPDE and corded two of them in a weekend. Both were shot on the outside edges. The softer compound with the siffer sidewall in the R-888 makes tire life a problem. What I have found to be the best thing to do is to do a six tire rotation. Plus you can run the R-888 in the non directional rotation as long as the track is not wet. Some poeple have reported that this has helped to increase tire life. I usually start cold at 31 all the way around because I want my tires to come in later in the run/race when everyone else is starting to get loose and greasy. That is just my personal preferance. Then I can adjust pressure from that starting point.

#140

Interesting post, on the spec miata board. I will certainly try the 40lb starting pressure.

[quote]Hope Ron doesn’t mind me sharing this with all of you…

Ok, here’s the deal on the R-888’s.

I’d advise you one and all to TRY the suggestions I will make and then make a decision as to the speed and durabilty of the R-888 Vs the Ra-1 AFTER you try
these new ideas.

But only AFTER you try the new settings.

A bit of History:
I first experienced excessive wear and bad handling of the R888 at the 2007 NASA 25 hour race on Mike Quan’s Honda Civic with Roger Foo
at the wheel.

Great team, excellent drivers. They came down in the middle of the night to ask if I could look at a tire issue they were having.
Seems that TOYO had given them some new 888’s to ‘try’ in the 25 hour race. First off, during a race is the WRONG time to try anything NEW.
Let alone sort out a new tire. But, it was what it was and these things happen.

The issue was the car was pushing (front wheel drive car) and was wearing out the centers of the tires at an alarming rate.
Well, one look at the worn centers and I suggested LOWERING the pressure. We did.
And they began to wear out QUICKER and the handling became worse! It made no sense to me whatsoever.

Fortunately the team had enough RA-1’s to complete the race and never put the R-888’s back on the car.
But, that adjustment in air pressure SHOULD HAVE worked. It had for years on all types of tires. But it didn’t and it stuck in my mind over the winter.

The start of the 2008 season:
In the NASA races the BMW E-30 class cars were allowed to run either the RA-1 or the R-888 until June of 2008. Most jumped to the R-888 right away.

But that deal about the tire wearing out quickly in the middle still bugged me. So, I kept an eye on them.

Early on I asked Donny Edwards to allow us to ‘try’ something on his E-30. At Thunderhill we sent Donny out at 40 lbs STARTING pressure!
He had already raced on them with the normal RA-1 starting pressure of 32 lbs, ending at 40lbs hot and was doing well. But, now I was asking him
to START at 40 lbs.

His comment after coming off the track was that the car felt more stable and quicker. His times proved that he was correct.
We kept an eye on Donny’s car during the year and asked if he was getting any excessive wear. Donny’s comment was that the car was used not only for the E-30 practice, qualifying and races but for every available session during the weekend. And no, they didn’t wear quicker.

With this knowledge I then asked a HPDE driver, another trusted friend, if he would go out at 40lbs cold in his Porsche All wheel drive 911 Turbo. The thing weights a ton! He had already been out for 2 sessions at the lower RA-1 pressure setting on his new R-888’s and LOVED the tires. Now, I was asking him to go out at a starting pressure of 40lbs. “Are you crazy” he asked. Maybe, but just try it for me.

His comment in coming off of the track was "I thought they were hooked up this morning with the lower pressure, but now they’re REALLY hooked up."
He loves the R-888 tires.

I’m relating these stories to help you all understand that I didn’t come by these very unusual pressure settings without some forethought, testing on various cars
with different drives and then analyzing the results.

Last story. At the NASA banquet one of the E-30 competitors came up and said that he finally put the pressure up to where I suggested at the last race.
I asked how it worked for him. He said that he had turned a lap only 1/10th of a second off of Donny Edwards fastest lap. I asked why he had not done that earlier in the year and he stated that he just couldn’t believe that pressures that high would work. Even though HE had maintained Donny’s car all year and knew exactly what we were using for starting pressure!

Asked how high the air pressure was that he used before, he said that he had started them at 38 and they went to about 42-44 hot. But, that the hot pressure Donny ran was 45-47. He stated that he could not believe the difference that 45-47 hot pressure made on his car. That it just came alive. 2-4 lbs in hot pressure does make a difference.

E-30’s wear? Even across the tire! Heat cycle 0. Wear rate: same as or better than the RA-1. How long do they wear? Down to the cords, just as the RA-1s did.

We’ve used these same pressure settings for a Porsche 996 Cup full race car that normally races on Michelin or Yokohama slick tires and with the same results. No heat cycling, no excessive wear and totally fun and drivable.

SM competitors, the R-888 has a different construction. A huge change in the design of the tire. You must make some changes to:

  1. Your driving style
  2. Your air pressure settings
  3. Your chassis setup
    To get the most out the new R-888’s.

Staying with the same old setup, same old pressure and same driving style will not prove beneficial.

My suggestions:

  1. Start with the exact chassis setup you have with the RA-1
  2. Start the R-888 with 40 to 42 lbs of pressure.
  3. Look for 45-47 as your hot pressure goal.
  4. Lower the rear of your car to allow the car to run FLAT, no rake!
  5. Drive the car as you would a real race tire with as little sliding as possible but concentrate on using the additional side grip and better braking advantage the R-888 has over the RA-1.
    That’s just to start with. Ultimately, a change in sway bar settings may be beneficial.

If you can’t get the tire up to 45-47 lbs, start with a HIGHER pressure.

Ultimately, I believe that you will find that about 3 to 3.5 degrees of negative camber will do the trick and with little or no toe out in the front and little or no
toe in for the rear.

This should to the trick. Let me know if I can help you.

Thanks,
Ron Cortez [/quote]