Sway Bar \"loop hole\"???

#21

I interpret "available from any manufacturer" to mean that they are generally available such that anybody can go purchase one. It is not kosher to declare yourself a manufacturer, or to modify a commercially available bar.

cheers,
bruce

ilateapex wrote:

[quote]I am not trying to cause any troble what so ever. The rules say what they say. If I manufacture my own bar and make it non adjustable the rules say it is legal. I would prefer that the stiffness of all the bars was the same and everyone is on the same equipment but that is not the case. Maybe a rules change will make it the case and if so I hope the change is made sooner than later.

I brought this up because I figued that no one had really done the math yet. As the series grows so do the number of people reading the rules for what they say, not what they should say.

Don’t fool yoursleves and think that with Simon, Jack, and others coming to play that they are not doing the same "thinking" that I am. Simon can drive the hell out of a car and you can be assued that it will be a very well prepared car. I also hope to have a very well prepared car.

The engine rules are iffy as well but I prefer to do the 100K miles junkyard engine route. Just don’t be suprised if someone else actually builds a motor for this series.

Michael O.

PS: Simon, please don’t take this as a dig, It is with the up most respect I say what I say. I have seen your old car and you drive.[/quote]

#22

ilateapex wrote:

[quote]
PS: Simon, please don’t take this as a dig, It is with the up most respect I say what I say. I have seen your old car and you drive.[/quote]

I took it as a compliment and I think your questions are valid. Why do we not a spec sway bar? This is a spec series with a spec suspension, this should include the sway bars and end links. I think the same should apply to camber plates they should have been fixed from the start, but its too late for that. If there is an advantage to be gained by manufacturing our own bar we will look into that, so that is food for thought. I imagine we will start with the ST bar and go from there but we could in theory develop our own and sell them.

#23

BigBruce wrote:

I think thats a little over the top calling Michael’s character into question. We are racers and I think its good for people to be thinking about ways to improve the car and themselves. this series is gaining popularity and is about to get extremely competitive, so you better get used to people pushing the enevelope. the good thing is that the rules are relatively well written and there are not a lot of loopholes that I can find.

#24

Well isn’t this fun.My read on sway bars: as long as it is commercially available in a fixed configuration it would meet the intent and letter of the rules.The one off, custom weleded unit(yep, it’s non-adjustable) owner would be ridiculed and beat into submission with a wet noodle.Carter and Mike may see a need to fine-tune things in this area as well as the engine rebuild area. But, as Mike O. said , that is another topic and currently no one has an abundance of straightaway talent to be concerned with.For the record, the police car that I own has the Turner J Stock suspension with much stiffer springs and custom Bilstein shocks. It is no faster (actually at rough tracks it is slower ) than the Taxi.Much ado over nothing? Regards, Robert Patton

#25

I am suprised at the caliper of folks on the forum and the way the chose to attack me for bringing to light the "loop hole" about the sway bars. The ones that know me should know that I follow the rules as written and don’t bend them. I long ago questioned what others were doing in the other series.

I guess what you don’t understand is that I am on your side. The rules are the rules. Spec a bar and that is OK. I plan on using the ST bar but may also try the IE bar as I currently own both.

Any manufacturer is just that. I can see developing a bar with Simon and Jack and then putting it into production. That is how UUC got started right?? If you don’t want me to make one then put it into the rules.

I understand the "Philosophy" of the series and like it. I am trying to open some eyes as to what may happen. Did Carter get a better run out of Oak Tree on Robert because the rear of Carter’s car was planted better due to a stiffer front sway bar? (this is only an example)

I want a series where if I win I know I out drove someone. Not because I chose the right equipment.

Anyway, I am just suprised that some are so nieve to think that thier way to interpret is the only way. Like it or not that is the way it is.

And to you Mr Big Bruice, I will show you my character, I will race you in your own car with you in my car for pinks. Care to step up?

Michael Osborne

#26

Sorry Mr. Big Bruice about my last post. If you knew me you would not have said what you did. Guys, I want the series to grow and grow. I want to build and compete in a low cost race car. It is a loop hole and it may need to be closed. Those running IE bars may be getting the short end of the stick. I am sure IE can weld the hole bracket on the end of the bar back 1.5" and then the bars would be equal. I guess if they did it, it would be OK. Maybe if they put out a service bulletin it would be OK. Hell, I would be willing to bring the welder to the track to modify and IE bar there for anyone. I want equal cars!!

The point is that the spec equipment is not equal!!

Jack, Can you do a more precise measurement and calculation and check this out? Can Elephant Motorsports design and manufacture a optimum bar? When Spec E36 speced a sway bar package I was wondering why they did not just do what Spec E36 did and open up the manufacture’s. I now know why.

Michael O.

#27

Racing is about pushing the envelope both as a driver and as a tuner. We strive to drive at the limit and build to the limit of the rules. Anyone who mocks a fellow competitor for seeking out legal ways to gain an advantage should stop kidding themselves. I race because driving and tuning are both fun. If I win from a combination of good driving and good tuning, I won’t lose sleep over it.

#28

ilateapex wrote:

[quote]

Any manufacturer is just that. I can see developing a bar with Simon and Jack and then putting it into production. That is how UUC got started right?? If you don’t want me to make one then put it into the rules.

Michael Osborne[/quote]

this would be ok, but modifying a bar one-off and calling yourself a manufacturer would not, IMHO.

It is odd that a specific bar wasn’t spec’d.
cheers,
bruce

#29

Why would making your own bar not be allowed? I plan to make my own brake cooling ducts as well. Is that OK? If someone likes my sway bar I would be willing to make one for them as well for a cost. Is that not what other manufacture’s do?

Why does anyone care if someone drills a hole in a bar and then cut off the old hole. As long as we all live by the same rule whey does it matter? The two bars most use now are not the same so why would it matter if mine is different? Are people out there scared that there is an advantage?

Like I said, I plan on using either the IE or ST bar. But as the rules read, making your own is also allowed. Call IE and see if they will sell you some sway bar stock. My guess is that anyone here could get it.

I am a grass roots kind of guy. I have looked into making a sway bar for my 635 long ago. I could not find the bar I wanted. Go to the stock car web sites and you will find all that is needed to make your own bar. What is the problem? If UUC made me a sway bar would that be OK? I am sure they could make just one for a price.

Don’t kill the messenger.

Michael O.

#30

Surly you guys have read some of the same books I have? Surly you read GRM? I have always looked at ways to DIY lots of things. I get a satisfaction from it. DIY a sway bar is easy. Drilling a hole and using a hack saw is easy. If you want all of the stuff to be the same then spec it to be the same.

Now, those items that are speced as the same should not be modified. ie cutting a link out of a spring.

Michael O.

#31

I didn’t call anyones character into question unless they are modifying the parts to gain an unfair advantage. That was my opinion then and it is now. As I understand the rules and their intent- unless it says you can do it, you can’t.
I understand racers are racers, but a spec class is a spec class. If you cut and fit your sway bar, why can’t I cut down the spec springs? I can do it with simple hand tools, also. Where does it stop? I’ll tell you where…if it doesn’t say you can, you can’t. It’s brilliant. It’s simple. I thought it was something everyone could understand.

#32

ilateapex wrote:

[quote]And to you Mr Big Bruice, I will show you my character, I will race you in your own car with you in my car for pinks. Care to step up?
Michael Osborne[/quote]

I prefer pistols at dawn. Ball’s in your court.

#33

Bruce, The rules say any non-adjustable sway bar from any manufacturer. That is pretty simple to me. There is no definition of manufacturer.

Everyone please keep in mind that if I wanted to use this to MY advantage, why would I even tell you about it?? I bet I have convinced some of the population to use the ST bars instead of the IE bars (although that was not my intent).

There are lots of "manufacturer’s who buy a product and modify/improve it and then resell it. What is the difference?

Why would modifying the part give anyone and "unfair" advantage? Could you not do the same under the current rules?

Read the rules it says you can.

Michael O.

#34

BigBruce wrote:

[quote]ilateapex wrote:

[quote]And to you Mr Big Bruice, I will show you my character, I will race you in your own car with you in my car for pinks. Care to step up?
Michael Osborne[/quote]

I prefer pistols at dawn. Ball’s in your court.[/quote]

You would challenge a Kentucky Hillbilly to a duel? I’m game.

Michael "Hatfield" Osborne (Concealed Cary license #0006027)

#35

Okay, everybody take a deep breath and count to ten…

Since only the diameter of the sways is specified and that the front must be non-adjustable there is lots of wiggle room. Manufacturer is free, which means to me that even a home made bar of any length or material would be allowed. So the OP’s point seems valid to me.

#36

ilateapex wrote:

[quote] There are lots of "manufacturer’s who buy a product and modify/improve it and then resell it. What is the difference?
Why would modifying the part give anyone and "unfair" advantage?
Michael O.[/quote]
#1 They’re not racing SpecE30
#2 Then why do it at all?- Epoxying the existing and drilling new holes to change the mounting/length in effect changes the rate.
#3 I’m going to change to a ST bar.:woohoo:

#37

I called and talked to Ireland Engineering about their sway bar and received a world of information. I mentioned my findings and he was surprised. He definitely knows what he is talking about. Now keep in mind I have not fitted the IE bar to the car yet and I don’t remember how the ST bar fits. He indicated that the angle of the link was important and if to severe would affect the bar. He said if you want it a little stiffer just drill another hole in the bracket and weld up the existing hole. His words not mine. I asked him if the Spec E30 bar was as stiff as his adjustable bar of the same diameter at full stiff setting. He said no. I also asked if the bar was heat treated and if welding on the bar would hurt it. He said it would not hurt it. I asked if I cut off the existing tab and re-welded it in a different location would be OK and he said yes. He also felt that this would be legal as the rules are written. He said he was not going to change his design but go ahead and drill a hole if you want a little stiffer.

Now if someone with the right equipment can accurately measure the two bars I would love to see the figures.

Michael O.

#38

Update to thread:

For those interested I do have a bar that I’ve built. I’ll run it at some point next season and play with it. As is I was happy enough with the handling and cornering speed of my car. I don’t want to make any changes until after I have the car finished. I simply optimized the geometry using stock attachment points and ‘legal’ modifications. It’s hard to really tune the bars on these cars because of the progressive spring. You’ll chase your tail to a degree. IE or ST bars will be fine for anybody running even if new stuff comes out.

I also know how to turn a legal set of bars into a variable rate torsion bar for those really interested in turning the rules loophole into an advantage. For this reason I’d like a limit on endlink lenth so they are within a certain range of the stock length. We need to allow an adjustable link so that any legal diameter bars can be run, but they need to be no longer or shorter than say a half inch from stock. I’ve seen a corner get knocked off a car before and the bar get tweeked, but if you have an adjustable link you can generally still make it work right without having to buy a new one.

It would be silly to get into a debate on who is a manufactuer. It’s a waste of time. If the bar is 22mm uses correct end link attachment points, and attaches in the stock position on the subframe, it should be legal. It’s not hard to get swaybars built. Design a prototype and call addco they’ll knock them out for you.

#39

You have got to be kidding…I can see that you some of you guys came from BMW CCA Club Racing.

Yes, you can look (and we know that some will do it) for this or that trick and say that you are just trying to build a better car…which is technically correct.

Regarding cutting the bar and welding/drilling a different hole; it does not say you can do it in the Rules and most importantly, it’s a performance part. Robert’s old lady doll in the back seat isn’t, so no one cared that Road Atlanta weekend. Modifying a bar at the track is outside the intent of Spec E30.

However, if you want to manufacture ("any manufacturer") your own bars and carry them all to the track, and spend all day under the car changing the bars to find the "best" bar that day, that’s up to you. I’ll be hanging out with my Spec E30 pals…and that’s the difference here.

The original intent here is clear. Build a simple car and go racing. And no, we’re not naive (I have 14 years of racing with several different bodies) and we know that more drivers means more problems. Especially when someone brings his philosophy from another series.

I also remember someone writing that "we should spec a bar" or something like that. We don’t spec anything. Mike and I discuss issues and make the decisions. As I have said many, many times, Spec E30 is not a democracy and NASA will support us 100% on our decisions. If Mike and/or I determine that a car is illegal and we have a leg to stand on with the Rules, you might be found illegal.

I have also said that this is not a "tinkerer" series, as are many others. Most of us don’t want to tinker. And we know that a few of you do. We don’t want the drivers to scheme and search for some trick and if we see something that is outside the intent of the series, we will make a decision as to whether it is legal or not. Period.

We don’t have to report to the membership, we don’t have to tip-toe around sponsors, and we will make decisions on the fly.

No, the Rules are not perfect. And it’s obvious that some people in the world like to buck the system, regardless of the system. And we as men like to show the world how clever we are and smart we are, even when it’s silly in an amateur racing series like Spec E30. A friend recently told me that he dreads seeing Bimmerforums (I’ve seen enough to stay away) a week before, and a week after a 'CCA race. Several "I’m smarter that you" writers get a kick out of being difficult. That’s their thing.

Well, the Spec E30 thing is simple and entertaining racing…without spending our kid’s college money.

A friend recently told me that he bought a race car and drove away from the field. What the hell fun is that? In 'CCA racing, that’s fun to a lot of drivers, I guess.

Our little group is growing and we know that with that, we’ll have more and more problems. That’s basically the way of the world.

But everyone should remember, if we see a driver doing something that we think is out of the intent of Spec E30 (race cars that perform closely), you may possibly be found illegal and that is that. The guys who have actually been racing with us know that and so far, they love our race weekends,which cannot be said with other racing bodies.

These discussions are interesting but in the end and at the track, we will protect the intent of Spec E30. And we’ll have a great time racing.

Carter

#40

Thanks for your comments Carter. I am not trying to buck the system as I agree with your system. I was pointing out that the equipment as required is not equal. The rules as you have explained them are how I interpreted them. I have no intent to modify a bar at the track or to make a lot of bars to try at an event. I am tired of tinkering on the race car. I was just trying to choose the best equipment from what is available. I did the calculations and found one of the bars better than another. Were you or Mike aware of this? I am guessing you probably were.

I brought this up so that all of us can be aware of the issue. All on equal ground to choose equipment. Sometimes ignorance is bliss but not when I’m spending 1,000 of $$$

I do have one more question. If racer X shows up with a max build car including an engine and it is built 100% legal but because of talant and equipment runs away from the pack by 25% is he going to be deamed illegal? What if this max build car goes to the dyno and has say 8% more HP than the next closest. Is he going to be deamed illegal?

Rules are great and so are dictatorships but sometimes they may conflict.

Don’t worry about me. I am no where close to Racer X but I am sure he will show up eventually. I do plan to have a well prepared car with nice cage and good equipment choices. Very similar to 90% of the Spec E30 cars I have seen.

Carter Please keep up the good work with this series. I hope it will last my entire racing career. I hope to be close enough to be able to at least see your tail lights.