Skid plate supplier?

#3

I think we need a rule change on Skid plates. A better design would be stronger and allow airflow to the oil pan. The rule ought to just say the max size of the plate, say “no other purpose”, and be done with it.

This is what the (NLA?) OEM skid plate looks like:
http://www.davelength.net/car/skidplate.html

There’s also folks selling some steel designs that seem reasonable.

I did some testing and found that the oil pan runs ~35deg cooler in hot weather with no skid plate. That cooler oil pan could be cooling a lot of oil. A skid plate that allowed air flow would give you that cooling.

#4

As of Thursday, Chuck still had a few and was still answering the phone.

#5

Ranger wrote:

[quote]I think we need a rule change on Skid plates. A better design would be stronger and allow airflow to the oil pan. The rule ought to just say the max size of the plate, say “no other purpose”, and be done with it.

This is what the (NLA?) OEM skid plate looks like:
http://www.davelength.net/car/skidplate.html

There’s also folks selling some steel designs that seem reasonable.

I did some testing and found that the oil pan runs ~35deg cooler in hot weather with no skid plate. That cooler oil pan could be cooling a lot of oil. A skid plate that allowed air flow would give you that cooling.[/quote]
I’m in complete agreement. Skid plates ought to be free.

#6

Is his phone # the same as the Factory 3 website?

#7

That’s what I called at and he told me about closing up shop.

#8

Unfortunately the website is down so I can’t access the phone #. Does anyone have it?

#9

Send me a PM and we can connect that way. I do have a few skidplates left and can make more if I need to. I can also continue to source the differential rebuild kits; that’s not a big deal either.

#10

[quote]Ranger wrote:

[quote]The rule ought to just say the max size of the plate, say “no other purpose”, and be done with it.

A skid plate that allowed air flow would give you that cooling.[/quote]
A non-solid skid plate would allow air flow. How about a non-solid skid plate with louvers that duct air toward the pan. Is that still “no other purpose”?
jlevie wrote:

This could be a slippery slope. “I want a really robust skid plate to protect my oil pan. Yes, it is tied to the subframe, rails and strut towers. But that is just to make sure it protects to the pan well, not for chassis stiffening purposes.”

Who has busted an oil pan with a Factory3 plate? It is designed to be protection, not absolute prevention.

I am having a hard time envisioning a 35 deg. drop in oil temps from increased air flow over a smooth oil pan. Was the testing back-to-back-to-back putting the plate on and off? If you started with no plate and measured later in the day with the plate, heat soak might have played a part.

#11

Steve D wrote:

[quote][quote]Ranger wrote:

[quote]The rule ought to just say the max size of the plate, say “no other purpose”, and be done with it.

A skid plate that allowed air flow would give you that cooling.[/quote]
A non-solid skid plate would allow air flow. How about a non-solid skid plate with louvers that duct air toward the pan. Is that still “no other purpose”?
jlevie wrote:

This could be a slippery slope. “I want a really robust skid plate to protect my oil pan. Yes, it is tied to the subframe, rails and strut towers. But that is just to make sure it protects to the pan well, not for chassis stiffening purposes.”

Who has busted an oil pan with a Factory3 plate? It is designed to be protection, not absolute prevention.

I am having a hard time envisioning a 35 deg. drop in oil temps from increased air flow over a smooth oil pan. Was the testing back-to-back-to-back putting the plate on and off? If you started with no plate and measured later in the day with the plate, heat soak might have played a part.[/quote]

Someone… I think Travis, had one of the F3P skid plates at Road Atlanta that was wadded up like a bow tie. His oil pan was untouched. It was impressive.

#12

I’ve managed to wear a small hole in mine over time, but still looks to be 100% functional.

#13

Steve D wrote:

[quote]
I am having a hard time envisioning a 35 deg. drop in oil temps from increased air flow over a smooth oil pan. Was the testing back-to-back-to-back putting the plate on and off? If you started with no plate and measured later in the day with the plate, heat soak might have played a part.[/quote]

I said oil pan temp, not oil temp. I don’t have data that shows oil temp with vs. without a skidplate, I have only oil pan temp which is different. What my data does show, however, is that if the oil pan isn’t getting air flow, the oil pan actually heats up the oil. That is to say, the oil pan is hotter then the oil is.

It’s already legal to weld in pieces that reinforce the front subframe. And the OEM skid plate is a pretty beefy piece. Clearly the OEM piece must be legal, even if it’s rare. And if it’s legal, it’s hard to win the argument of "skidplates should not be more beefy then 1/16th AL. In fact, all we’d have to do is state that the skid plate can only mount like Chuck’s does, and no matter how it’s made it won’t add as much stiffness as the OEM skid plate. The single mount point under the radiator is a design that allows a lot of flex.

#14

Ranger wrote:

[quote]What my data does show, however, is that if the oil pan isn’t getting air flow, the oil pan actually heats up the oil. That is to say, the oil pan is hotter then the oil is.
[/quote] :huh: Unless you have a fire under the pan, I fail to see how that is even possible.

[quote] Clearly the OEM piece must be legal, even if it’s rare. [/quote] Agreed, if it came from the factory that way. After all, the rules do not permit removing it.:wink:

#15

Looks like its still available.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/smart/S-mart.cgi?command=add&weight=8.2&itemid=51-71-1-971-001-BOE&itemname=Front%20Aggregate%20Protective%20Skid%20Plate%2C%20E30%20(from%209%2F87)%20318i%2Fis%20M42%2C%20325e%2C%20325i%20%20%20Brand%3A%20Genuine%20BMW&itemprice=363.25&itemquant=1

Another site I found it on says its only 240$ from the dealer. Maybe its just NLA through BMW.

#16

Steve D wrote:

[quote]Ranger wrote:

[quote]What my data does show, however, is that if the oil pan isn’t getting air flow, the oil pan actually heats up the oil. That is to say, the oil pan is hotter then the oil is.
[/quote] :huh: Unless you have a fire under the pan, I fail to see how that is even possible.
[/quote]

My test was good so I stand behind the results. If anything, it under-represented the temp of the pan. The only thing that remains is understanding why. I’d say that the oil pan is a long ways from the waterjacket. So the lower half of the block is likely to get pretty hot. And that heat is transmitted to the pan.

#17

The oil pan has a lot of surface that is exposed to airflow if the “legal” skid plate isn’t used. If you have a skid plate it blocks the airflow and the pan temperature will be higher.

#18

jlevie wrote:

Yes, but the pan can only be as hot as the source of the heat, which is the oil. The pan cannot be hotter than the oil unless something else is heating it. If those “test results” are valid, I will eat my hat. Here we have another perceived problem based on faulty evidence.

#19

I don’t know what the right answer is but the pan could easily be heated by conduction from the bottom of the engine block, not just the oil.
bruce

#20

The block is hardly going to be any higher than the coolant temperature, which will be way lower than the 235F reported by Scott. The oil can, an usually is, hotter than the coolant and block becuase of friction in the bearing surfaces. I don’t yet have data from a Spec E30 engine (I will soon), but what I’ve seen on other engines is that oil temps can be way higher than engine temps.

#21

Steve D wrote:

[quote]jlevie wrote:

Yes, but the pan can only be as hot as the source of the heat, which is the oil. The pan cannot be hotter than the oil unless something else is heating it. If those “test results” are valid, I will eat my hat. Here we have another perceived problem based on faulty evidence.[/quote]

Steve, I love ya man, but in this subject we’re in my world. You know about making money and I know about heat. Mechanical engineers take an assload of classwork in thermo and heat transfer, and I took graduate work in the stuff.

The engine is not a static source of heat, nor is any part of it in a temperature equilibrium. There are numerous heat sources and numerous mechanisms where heat is leaving the “system” as defined by the block, head and oil pan. Just because coolant might leave the block at 210deg doesn’t mean that’s the temp of the block. Just because the oil is 225deg that doesn’t mean that’s the temp of the pan. And there’s temp gradients between inner and outer surfaces of the pan, and top to bottom of the pan.

It is perfectly reasonable for 225deg oil to be in a 190deg oil pan that has lots of air flow past it. It is also perfectly reasonable for the pan to be at 235deg when air flow is blocked. It is perfectly reasonable for 210deg water to exit a 250deg engine block.

#22

Ranger wrote:

I have the advantage of my thought process being unencumbered by knowledge, preconceptions and/or intelligence. It is a freeing experience.

As a layman, my assumption is that even with the F3P skid plate in place, there is air flow around the oil pan. Significantly reduced, but it is there. Some of it comes through the oil cooler, so it is above ambient. Some through the radiator, ditto. But the pan is by no means sealed off.

I don’t know the temperature of the block under full load. I never thought it would make me or the car faster for me to know.

I imagine the temp is higher near the combustion chambers than at the bottom (bold assumption 'cuz that’s where the engineers put the water jacket). Even if there is tremendous heat at the bottom of the block, are the little oil pan bolts ('cuz the rest is insulated by the OP gasket?) going to transmit enough heat to the pan that a couple quarts of liquid can’t absorb the heat to reach an equilibrium?

PS - The point of the F3P plate, in my opinion, is to increase your chance of a glancing blow on the oil pan rather than having it “catch” on whatever curb or off-track obstacle you are bounding over. The plate is not - and should not reasonably be - designed to support the weight of the car to keep it off the pan when you go out of bounds. You could drill several 1" diameter holes in the leading 1/3 of the plate and get pretty good air flow across the pan and still have most of the protection you could reasonably expect from the plate.