Should SpecE30 go to coilovers?


#81

I agree with NASACHRIS. A large majority of the posts in this thread favor simplicity and rules compliance. I was originally for coil overs because I thought it would be easier to get more negative camber this way. Based on these threads, I am now against coil overs.

I have been told by more than one shop how to bend tubes to get 3.5 negative camber, so my conclusion is several people must be doing this. Whether they race in our group or run SCCA, Chump or elsewhere is unknown. If it is cheating, and it is for our class, then lets stop it for SpecE30.

let’s set a maximum camber at 2.8 and call it a day. Same for ride height. They are pretty easily measured in the tech shed for a protest. If you car is no longer compliance because of wear, accidents or whatever, then get it back to the rule.

I also like NASACHRIS’s idea to set a minimum block and head thickness to stop compression increase games. At some point, warping clean-up becomes head and block manipulation.


#82

A lot of good points made here, but it’s interesting that there is no real consensus. The idea behind this thread was to propose a solution to a rule problem that does not allow all cars to achieve the same amount of camber. Although car preparation is a large part of racing and will never be equal, parity is very good in our series, but there is an issue with front camber. I’ve measured many crankshafts, pistons, and other engine components and found that BMW’s manufacturing tolerances are ridiculously tight. It’s odd that same precision isn’t seen in the front suspension and max camber variance is as high as a few degrees. Perhaps BMW used lower quality technicians in the suspension assembly, but that’s unlikely. It’s more likely that our suspension components have either been intentionally or accidentally bent over the last three decades.

In a spec series, fewer rules are generally better. Any time a rule is added, cost could be increased and there could be unrealized unintended consequences of creating loopholes that allow creative tinkerers to gain a performance advantage. Considering that, rule stability makes sense, but there is no reason why some of our rules cannot be improved to remove some of the loopholes and match what actually gets enforced at the track. In my opinion, a rule is no good if it’s not enforced or it’s so difficult to enforce that the officials don’t spend money or time on compliance.

Robert Patton makes a great point that can be applied to a lot of our rules in that “bent stuff” can’t be enforced and this idea was considered when rules were changed to delete the max camber rule. The reality is that we would not be talking about this issue if all cars had equal camber; that is not the case and the only difference between cars that impacts camber is in fact the geometry of the suspension components. My car was originally started by another builder for CCA KP class and I don’t know what may have been adjusted in the suspension before I purchased the car. I bet that precision measuring equipment would point out that my struts are slightly different than a garage queen E30 which would also be different when compared to a 300,000 mile beater car that has hit thousands of pot holes. But like Robert said, why bother? It would be costly, time consuming and just a pain in the ass to spend the time measuring strut tubes at the track.

So we have a rule that does not allow folks to bend there strut tubes. That’s fine, but the unintended consequence is that folks will have to swap strut housings until they find a set that provides the desired camber. That’s time consuming and expensive; some racers will do it and some will not. It’s ironic however, if they find a strut housing that allows a lot of camber, they are just finding a strut housing that has previously been bent either by pothole, accident, a well-intended shop, etc… Ignoring this consequence and not changing the rule in some way will put some racers at a disadvantage. Although I have never installed a cherry strut housing on a pristine car and measured the camber, my bet is that if I did, I would not be able to achieve -3.5 degrees of camber.

If the idea is a level playing field in car preparation, the current rules are obviously pretty good, but I also think it’s important to improve the rules when issues are pointed out. Scott’s idea of new a new spring design would require every racer to buy new springs and is simply too costly. Paul Bacon’s idea of setting a minimum camber of -2.8 degrees is a good one if that is what can actually be achieved by a pristine car with verified “straight” strut housings. In my opinion though, Robert Patton’s point on why bother to enforce bent stuff is the simplest idea to enforce and this should also be included in a rule modification so that many racers don’t have to change their strut housings if the maximum allowable camber is reduced. That said, I like the current rule and prefer that we just add a provision for strut housing modifications that is well thought out and worded to only allow folks to add camber. The obvious consequence is that some racers will have to work a little bit harder to get camber to where many of the front running cars are already.

I don’t agree with Paul’s idea of new rules to prevent maximizing compression ratio by applying a minimum cylinder head and block thickness for two reasons. First, many of the current LEGALLY “built” engines may not comply and it would be costly to many to replace out of spec blocks and heads. It’s really not fair to change the rules in a way that makes a currently legal car illegal after implementation of a new rule. The second and bigger issue is that it’s a bad idea to create rules that can’t be enforced. There is no non-destructive inspection method that could reliably provide any indication on block and cylinder head thickness. Cranking compression is not going to change much and there are many other factors that have a much larger influence on cranking compression. The only way to inspect would be disassembly and to actually measure both thicknesses. The unintended consequence of a very difficult to enforce rule is that honest racers will remain honest and cheaters will cheat because it’s easy to not get caught. In my opinion, this falls in the why bother category because enforcement would be so unpopular and costly that it would never occur and simply create an easy way for some racers to gain a performance advantage (if done properly). It also falls into the why bother category because increasing compression is only one of the many legal improvements you can make when building an engine. Increasing compression alone can actually decrease torque because of other things decking the block changes and otherwise only has a very small change in engine performance.

The front running engines are not making big power because they have thin heads and decked blocks. Sure it matters, but the very small increase in compression through decking is only one of many factors that will help engines perform better. Besides, you really can’t go very thin on the head (or block) without having piston to cylinder interference. The Bentley specs 4.909” as the minimum thickness for cylinder heads and most heads start out around 4.930” or so from the factory. Going below the Bentley Spec effectively, by decking the head or block, will put piston to head clearance less than .040”. Below .030”, you WILL start having piston to head contact. Removing .021” from the head or block only provides ~.5 increase in compression ratio in the very best case. The thermal efficiency of an engine is a function of compression ratio and air. With the properties of air remaining constant, 8.8 and 9.3 to one engines are 58.1% and 59.0% thermally efficient respectively. Assuming all other things affecting performance remain constant and engine management can actually take advantage of the increase in efficiency, increasing compression ratio by .5 could theoretically improve performance by 2.4WHP. However, the actual performance increase will likely be less. Again, why bother to create a rule that would be extremely difficult to enforce and the maximum achievable performance advantage that rule might influence is within the margin of error of repeatable dyno results? Many other things matter a lot more than compression.


#83

One thing I was wondering on my long drive home from this last race weekend was – we have this collective concern about widening the gap between the “haves” (people that have time/money to spend tweaking their cars) and the “have nots” (budget racers that love racing but don’t have time/money to tinker), and we’re worried that coilovers would widen this gap, but what if we’re wrong? What if ease of adjustability would actually help to narrow the gap? The hypothesis centers around the idea that the “haves” already have ways to get all the adjustment they want/need through various tricks that stretch the limits (or maybe undetectably break) the rules. Exploiting these tricks – possibly even on a per track basis – maybe takes resources unavailable to the budget racers.

Could a suspension option that allows easy adjustability effectively narrow that barrier to operating an optimal setup?

We’re worried that it’ll result in the “throw money at it” racers tinkering with ideal suspension setups – but don’t they do that anyway? Maybe easier adjustability would actually help bring parity to the field.

Anyways, that wasn’t meant to sound like I’m advocating coilovers. Just something that crossed my mind. :slight_smile:

Going back to Rich’s 1 through 5 option list, my flavor-of-the-week current top pick is coming up with a thinner spring/strut combo that provides the same performance as the current setup and making it optional. People that don’t have camber issues and already have their setup can keep what they have. The cost for upgrading the front would probably only be slightly more than modifying your strut tubes when you factor in shipping. That’s assuming new camber plates, spring, and a perch that fits in the existing strut tube that supports the thinner spring. It also assumes getting a few bucks for existing springs/plates. The problem to overcome would be finding a combination that is so obviously equivalent in performance that people don’t think simply switching to thinner springs will result in a performance improvement. This may be hard to do if you consider that a thinner spring contributes slightly less to the unsprung weight. So… if someone knowledgeable had the time and energy to do the testing necessary to come up with the right combination, then I’d think this would be the best option.

Second pick would be back to strut bending. Though, even though I wouldn’t be concerned with the safety aspect, it still seems like an awkward rule to have.

All in all, it seems like we’re just at kind of an awkward point with the camber. If you enforce a camber rule, you’re possibly introducing a ton of expense to people with legitimately damaged strut towers – straighten your body out, or fix your strut tubes, or you will be DQ’d. If you don’t create a rule that enables getting optimal (~4 degrees) camber, then you still have a gap between those with resources and those that don’t. Maybe there just isn’t an “everyone wins” solution here.

Side thought – we have all these concerns around adjustability, but how did the existing rules around adjustability come about? Were camber/caster plates always allowed? What about the rear camber/toe adjusters? What about slotting the strut tower mounting holes? What about eccentric FCA bushings? Or were these all in the initial ruleset? If not, was there this much concern around those changes?

Som


#84

If you don’t agree with the idea of a minimum thickness, and you are right, it is difficult to enforce, what about maximum compression? I don’t get how someone can have an off and still catch the leaders in a couple of laps of a 9 lap race. I am convinced some engines out there are not legal. How can we keep them from running?

And I think that someone willing to spend a lot of money on a car and engine will usually be up front, assuming equal driving ability with someone with less money. No rule is going to prevent that…


#85

Coil over adapters, ebay, 42 each. camber plates, 115 pair. springs 120-150 apiece. Not much money at all. Back to springs, I have said before, all chassis are not the same and do not want the same springs. From my experience, changes usually amount to 50# or less but you can’t do that with spec springs. You want a level playing field, open up springs and allow coil overs on the front…that allows everyone to fine tune their chassis and will make racing closer.


#86

But everyone will not fine tune their chassis, so racing will not be closer.


#87

It allows everyone the opportunity…whether on not you do it is your decision.


#88

Aint nobody tuning nothing.

The idea that this whole thread generated that I totally love is allowing aftermarket chips in the computer to make the HP limit, providing that the stock rev limiter is retained.


#89

If you believe there are a lot of cars that have sub-optimal suspensions due to their 25 year old worn chassis, then the “no tuning allowed” argument leaves people with worn bodies stuck performing sub-optimally and other people (either through luck of finding a straight chassis or the money to fix) with an advantage. If you’re in this camp, allowing suspension that can be tuned narrows the playing field because people can make coarse adjustments to their suspension to affect their car’s handling in a cheaper way than frame/shock tower/subframe/trailing arm straightening.

If you believe all bodies are relatively the same, then you believe everyone who puts the spec spring/shock combination on a donor E30 will have a car that behaves identically enough to every other E30 with that suspension. In this case, a “tuning allowed” rule only affects the people with time/resources to do fine tuning and, thereby, only serves to widen the field.

We seem to all agree that people with resources to spend on winning will spend their resources on the fine tuning.

I think the data point that we’re missing – and the reason why I think we can’t really agree on this stuff – is understanding how many cars are really in need of suspension tweaks to compensate for body wear.

Between the two camps – the “cheaper way to get to handling par” vs. “enable an arms race” camps – I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Both results would come out of a rule change like this – deformed body folks will be able to get their cars “up to par” easier, and “disposable resources” drivers will tune heavily to get every last ounce of performance out of their cars.

I’m not sure there’s a way to objectively determine which one will happen more and, therefore, have a larger positive or negative effect.


The idea “allow chips to make performance changes easier” is an appealing one, but, to me, seems fraught with pitfalls. I think once you go there there’s too many ways to modify the performance for race vs. test (think VW’s recent debacle). Also, to me, peak horsepower isn’t really everything anyway. How the car produces torque in the mid-range has just as much to do with lap times as the peak horsepower number, which means you’ll have the same problem as the suspension adjustability – some people will just get a flash to compensate for worn engines, but the tuners will now have a tool to not only get 160hp, but maybe bump up the mid-range by 10-20 ft/lbs over the mid pack people.

Then again, who knows, maybe over time things would settle down and everyone will eventually be running the same software and getting the most out of their engine – the only tweaks needed being something to tune up/down the motor based on how fresh the internals are. I can’t help but think this is exactly the same argument the “for suspension tweaks” people are making, though.


#90

I think the only way I’d be in favor of a chip is if we all ran the same tune. This would be easy to test (put it in a reader and get a checksum). It’s too easy to spend 7 hours on a dyno at $120/hr and only make a couple HP.

But I think this is a topic for another thread.


#91

We’ve had some conversations re. a Spec chip. The purpose of the proposal that we discussed was along the lines of…there’s a fair delta between an OEM and an aftermarket chip, but not much delta between my aftermarket chip and your aftermarket chip. Therefore if we provided a source of aftermarket chips at a discount with the OEM rev limiter, we’d essentially be taking away the advantage of chipping a car. We could spec the official SpecE30 aftermarket chip and make it largely a waste of time to attempt to find a better chipping solution.

I kinda like the idea, but few others seem to.

I’d not considered the idea of doing a checksum on OEM chips. I’d be a bit hesitant to pull chips out of DME’s because one has to be pretty careful re. removing a chip that has been in place for 25yrs. That said, can you point me towards an inexpensive chip reader? It would be an interesting idea to experiment with.


#92

Scott, you’re losing the words-per-post battle to Rich and myself. Just FYI.

Som
Seeker of Stupid Superlatives


#93

[quote=“pwbacon356” post=82031]If you don’t agree with the idea of a minimum thickness, and you are right, it is difficult to enforce, what about maximum compression? I don’t get how someone can have an off and still catch the leaders in a couple of laps of a 9 lap race. I am convinced some engines out there are not legal. How can we keep them from running?

And I think that someone willing to spend a lot of money on a car and engine will usually be up front, assuming equal driving ability with someone with less money. No rule is going to prevent that…[/quote]

To be clear, cranking compression (what you test with a compression gauge) and static compression ratio are not directly related in our engines because the only (legal) way to alter compression ratio also retards cam timing. If you increase the compression ratio by decking the head, you will actually see a lower cranking compression number with all other things remaining constant. The Bentley manual specs cranking compression at 142 to 156 psi; I’m not sure where they get these numbers because I’ve seen properly maintained original engines make significantly more and front running engines will make significantly more as well.

A cranking compression test is an interesting idea. You can’t tell anything about block thickness, head thickness, piston geometry or stroke, but you can get an indication of camshaft setup under the assumption that the engine internals are rule compliant. No rule change or addition required here; this could just be a method for a knowledgeable inspector to draw a conclusion about compliance to existing rules.


#94

[quote=“Ranger” post=82038]We’ve had some conversations re. a Spec chip. The purpose of the proposal that we discussed was along the lines of…there’s a fair delta between an OEM and an aftermarket chip, but not much delta between my aftermarket chip and your aftermarket chip. Therefore if we provided a source of aftermarket chips at a discount with the OEM rev limiter, we’d essentially be taking away the advantage of chipping a car. We could spec the official SpecE30 aftermarket chip and make it largely a waste of time to attempt to find a better chipping solution.

I kinda like the idea, but few others seem to.

I’d not considered the idea of doing a checksum on OEM chips. I’d be a bit hesitant to pull chips out of DME’s because one has to be pretty careful re. removing a chip that has been in place for 25yrs. That said, can you point me towards an inexpensive chip reader? It would be an interesting idea to experiment with.[/quote]

I agree, I like the idea too… as long as it doesn’t make the cars fast enough that we start catching up to Spec3 or another class. I want to be racing against other SE30’s, not everyone else :slight_smile:

I haven’t looked inside the E30 ECU to see if the EPROM is removable. Is it soldered in place or in a socket? I have a Moates reader, but I don’t know if it’ll work with the E30. Some research would have to be done. A quick googling turned up the Willem programmer.


#95

Re. losing the battle of words. Seeking to ID the community’s opinion and for the effort, getting banged around with exclamations of “quit trying to change the series” went down kinda hard. I don’t like conflict.

I’ve been thinking about that low compression #. My theory is that it’s typical Bentley. If you look around the engine chapter, you’ll see a lot of specs. Those come from the OEM service manual and then Bentley reprinted them. But what isn’t made clear is what those #'s represent. Rich mentioned, for example, that BMW build engines to exacting tolerances. But when you read the specs in the service manual or Bentley, you don’t see exacting tolerances. Instead you see quite wide tolerances. So there is a situation where the spec in the factory is very tight, yet they don’t want to publish that as the “service manual” spec, because it would mean that every other engine with 50k miles on it might fail the spec and then someone would be saying “hey dealer, you need to replace my engine for free.”

We know that’s how it works with many engine specs. So why not apply the same idea to the compression test. Maybe our engines come out of the factory with 180-190psi, or whatever, and the service manual spec of 142-156psi is best understood as “bottom threshold of acceptable. 141psi means dealer you need to replace engine under warranty.”


#96

[quote=“JustinHoMi” post=82041][quote=“Ranger” post=82038]We’ve had some conversations re. a Spec chip. The purpose of the proposal that we discussed was along the lines of…there’s a fair delta between an OEM and an aftermarket chip, but not much delta between my aftermarket chip and your aftermarket chip. Therefore if we provided a source of aftermarket chips at a discount with the OEM rev limiter, we’d essentially be taking away the advantage of chipping a car. We could spec the official SpecE30 aftermarket chip and make it largely a waste of time to attempt to find a better chipping solution.

I kinda like the idea, but few others seem to.

I’d not considered the idea of doing a checksum on OEM chips. I’d be a bit hesitant to pull chips out of DME’s because one has to be pretty careful re. removing a chip that has been in place for 25yrs. That said, can you point me towards an inexpensive chip reader? It would be an interesting idea to experiment with.[/quote]

I agree, I like the idea too… as long as it doesn’t make the cars fast enough that we start catching up to Spec3 or another class. I want to be racing against other SE30’s, not everyone else :slight_smile:

I haven’t looked inside the E30 ECU to see if the EPROM is removable. Is it soldered in place or in a socket? I have a Moates reader, but I don’t know if it’ll work with the E30. Some research would have to be done. A quick googling turned up the Willem programmer.[/quote]
It’s in a socket and therefore removable. One just has to be careful.

It would be interesting to attempt to do a checksum via the OEM connector.

Maybe at Nationals one might be tempted to remove and check a couple chips, but it’s not something I would want to attempt to the whole field at a regional event. Much better to simply connect something to the DME’s OEM connector.


#97

[quote=“Ranger” post=82043]It would be interesting to attempt to do a checksum via the OEM connector.

Maybe at Nationals one might be tempted to remove and check a couple chips, but it’s not something I would want to attempt to the whole field at a regional event. Much better to simply connect something to the DME’s OEM connector.[/quote]

It may or may not be possible with the connector. I haven’t researched it… I’d guess not though. Older cars usually have proprietary data protocols and don’t have any provision to do that without pulling the chip.

It looks like my Moates programmer should be compatible with the E30’s EPROM, however I can’t find my spare ECU, and I don’t want to open my “race” ECU. I’m sure it’ll work though. Just gotta compile a database of checksums for all of the legal ECU’s. But yeah… not worth it except at nationals.


#98

Wondering if it would be easier for testing purposes to build an output tester based on the OEM connector. As in, not a checksum of the contents of the chip, but checking the ECU inputs and measuring the outputs against a specification.

I have to imagine that hard work there (mapping out exactly how a stock ECU should behave) has already been done. so maybe it’s a matter of finding out by who and see if they have a device capable of providing inputs and reading the results. Then offering to buy a dozen or so for the various regional directors for testing.

It would be more work than reading a chip one time, but I imagine reading a chip for every time there’s a compliance check will get problematic with these old boxes. I’d foresee bent and broken DIP pins and claims of the ECU not functioning properly after the chips were reinserted. There’s also the fact that, technically, just the data on the ROM might not necessarily be 100% of the story. For example, I imagine you could add various circuits around the board to tweak inputs to the chip and outputs from the chip.

Som


#99

Re. building an output tester. Go ahead.

Re. concern that some might actually re-engineer the board. Dude, I have long been the SpecE30 “hey, check out to this idea” nutjob. If you want to take over that role, don’t beat around the bush with sweet-talk, just say so.

From a standpoint of trying to keep everyone as equal as possible, it’s best to orient on the most likely and most problematic issues. And 99% of those ideas still go nowhere.


#100

[quote=“Ranger” post=82046]Re. building an output tester. Go ahead.

Re. concern that some might actually re-engineer the board. Dude, I have long been the SpecE30 “hey, check out to this idea” nutjob. If you want to take over that role, don’t beat around the bush with sweet-talk, just say so.

From a standpoint of trying to keep everyone as equal as possible, it’s best to orient on the most likely and most problematic issues. And 99% of those ideas still go nowhere.[/quote]

An output tester would be really hard to do right. A simple test wouldn’t be hard, but something thorough would be next to impossible. But in combination with other tests (like EPROM checksum) it would be useful.

There are other modifications that you could do to the circuit board, but most would be fairly easy to catch by visual inspection.