Seats

#21

Sasha,
Here is the response from the horses mouth=
Sasha,

You brought up some valid concerns and I would like to address them. You are intitled to your opinion about our seat back brace. I would like to take the time to go over some of your points in order to educate you and the others on this forum. Unfortunately, I am not a member of the forum, so I am having this posted by a friend. If anyone would like to respond, please cc me. You compared our seat back brace with the Bray Krause Bolt-in Brace.

You state that you feel our brace would be inadequate. I have to disagree. However, when you requested a return, we provided you with that service. The staff at I/O Port Racing Supplies feels that customer service is number one and part of our job is to educate. That is why we are planning a series of seminars to be given to NASA members at the race track. (Sorry, NorCal only.) You state that you think our brace would not be strong enough in a side impact, inferring that this was important to you. It is true that our brace has little side impact protection when the brace is extended to it’s full length. The shorter the distance between the seat back and the shoulder harness bar, the better side protection it will give. However, the Bray Krause brace that you bought has absolutely no side impact protection at all.

You stated that rotation of the brace on the shoulder harness bar is dangerous. We agree, and we made our brace so that it would not rotate when installed per our instructions and without drilling holes in the cage. The Bray Krause brace requires you to drill through the roll cage tubing so that it will not rotate. I have to assume that when you did so, you bushed the roll cage tubing. If not, this can be dangerous. Although drilling holes in the cage is not strictly prohibited in a seat back brace installation, the rules do prohibit this when installing the window net (SCCA and NASA) and battery master switch (SCCA). When drilling the cage you are creating a weak area where the cage could start to fail. If the bolts to the brace attachment are overtightened, you can also start to collapse the tubing. I do not recommend drilling any holes in the cage that are not required. If a Bray Krause seat back brace is preferred, I recommend their weld-in unit.

You further state that his brace does not match the angle of your seat. This is bad news as it will load the seat unevenly providing a place for the seat to bend or break. I recommend that you fix this problem. Remember the rules state that the brace plate must distribute the load and no corners or sharp objects may be placed in such a manner that could lead to a possible puncture of the driver. As a tech inspector, I might have an issue with a plate not matching the angle of the back of the seat. Not having seen your car, I cannot state an absolute.

You also do not mention that the Brey Krause brace is not SCCA legal (for those that might care). You do not mention the weight difference or the cost difference. For those that are not aware, I/O Port makes our brace from aluminum for reduced weight. And, for the record, the I/O Port brace is not PCA legal where the Bray Krause unit is.

It may be your opinion that our brace is not up to the task, but what is your background to make this opinion? Are you a professional race car fabricator? Did you consult a few race car fabricators? Well I certainly did when designing our brace. I also took in the 20 years of racing safety knowledge obtained from being a racer, safety crew personnel, tech inspector and racing safety equipment dealer. We have 1000’s of these braces sold over the years and used by many professional race shops and teams. There is no accident (that I am aware of) where our brace did not function as designed.

Although someone could certainly design a better, stronger seat back brace than the ones currently on the market, I/O Port offers a quality brace at a reasonable price. The brace made by Brey Krause is also a quality unit and offers a different way of thinking about bracing. But, I am not convinced that it offers anything extra in the way of safety. The nice thing about America is that we have a choice. Aluminum seat or Composite seat. FIA or SFI harnesses. I/O Port or Bray Krause seat back brace. Or, go make your own. This is racing. Innovation is what it is all about!

See you at the track!

Ken Myers, president, I/O Port Racing Supplies
ken@ioportracing.com

#22

Just what i was saying,
Trust your observations.
I started out looking at the Kirkey, by the way nothing wrong with them.
Finished with the Sparco
To each is own.
I sat in at least 10 seats.

#23

motormuncher, You brought up excellent points. Thanks for the feedback.

#24

I don’t like/trust aluminum seats, my personal preference. I use FIA certified MOMO/Sparco/OMP/etc. No need for brace.
As for the harness, I got Sparcos, but I could use any other brand, and the GForce look good.

#25

I appreciate everything Ken said. It’s true that he made my return easy and I’m thankful for that. I didn’t buy my seat back brace from I/O Port, but I’ve given them other business and always been happy dealing with them.

I would be happier with my installation if I had a better angle to match the seat. I plan on remedying this, but I am frankly only minimally concerned with the function of the brace since I have an FIA seat. My seat is over 5 years old (and hence "expired"), but it’s only been installed for one year.

What Ken said about drilling holes through the harness bar also gave me pause. When I fix everything, I’d like to cut out the bar and replace it, using a weld-in bracket the next time around.

It’s true the I/O port brace is much less expensive and much lighter than the Brey-Krause. It does require drilling through the seat, however, which is a big no-no for my Momo composite seat (straight from the manufacturer). What I take greatest issue with is that I interpret I/O Port as marketing the brace because it better stops sideways motion of the seat. IMO, this sideways motion is much better stopped by a right side net properly mounted, and I don’t think the seat back brace is going to be very effective at restraining this sideways motion because of structural limitations and geometric limitations. I’m well aware that my Brey-Krause won’t do anything to stop sideways motion and I don’t expect it to.

In the end, after handling and comparing both seat back braces, I was more impressed with the stoutness of the Brey-Krause. It’s just a personal opinion not backed up by any testing. Ultimately, we all do what we feel most comfortable with when it comes to safety.

Sasha

#26

sorry but here is kens reponse.
I must say i am indeed satisfied with all the extra customer support i have recieved at I/O port.

Sasha,

I agree with what you have said in your latest post, except for not being concerned about the back brace because the seat is FIA rated. FIA rated seats are, in general, designed to flex in an impact. This movement can be serveral inches. FIA rated seats have a 5-year life span because composite seats age and will loose their elasticity over the years. So, the older the seat is, and especially when the seat is stored in high heat or in the sun, the more brittle the seat becomes.

Adding a seat back brace to comply with the racing rules will also change the way the seat will now perform in an accident. You have removed most if not all the flexability of the seat. (The Brey Krause brace has a foam cushion to absorb some of the rear movement.) But, because you have now added in a place for the seat to bend or break over, you may have actually decreased the safety of the seat. Unfortunately, you do have to comply with the rules requiring the seat back brace, but you need to do the best job possible to insure your safety. If I were you, I would seriously think about either moving the seat to the passenger side or selling the seat to someone doing autocross.

You are absolutely correct in mentioning that our brace requires drilling through the seat for installation and that Momo, and other FIA manufacturers, prohibit this type of drilling. They are rightfully concerned about their liability; they do not know where, how many or what size holes you might drill. However, it is our contention that drilling two 3/8" holes in the seat back and then reinforcing them with backing plates on both sides will not degrade the seat. The SCCA requires that the brace be "Firmly Attached" to the seat. (NASA does not have this requirement.) If you do not want to drill holes, you could fiberglass in the mounting plate to the seat back.

I definately agree that a right side net, properly installed, could reduce sideways motion of the seat even further. However, we are very concerned about the questionable safety aspects of a right side net that keeps your head from moving to the right, but does not stop the shoulders and upper body from moving. We are concerned that this type of movement could break your neck. We are investigating this and trying to come up with a net system that will help prevent the body and head (and seat) from moving to the right in a T-bone impact.

The safety of a race car needs to be properly thought out and designed as a system. Installing safety equipment without regards to it’s context within the system could actually be very dangerous. As an example, installing a roll bar without also installing padding. Or, installing racing harnesses without taking into account the proper angles of the belts, proper mounting points or a proper seat that is designed for harnesses. As a tech inspector, I see this at every event I attend. While the driver thinks he is increasing his safety, he may in fact be reducing his safety. It is not his fault, he just does not have the experience or education needed.

Ken Myers, president, I/O Port Racing Supplies
ken@ioportracing.com

#27

BETO wrote:

[quote]I don’t like/trust aluminum seats, my personal preference. I use FIA certified MOMO/Sparco/OMP/etc. No need for brace.
As for the harness, I got Sparcos, but I could use any other brand, and the GForce look good.[/quote]

The worst thing I always see with aluminum seats is the mounting schemes. They need to be mounted in a particular way which is different from FG or CF FIA seats. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen this actually, at least not a high quality job, seen lots of hack jobs.

Personally, I prefer FIA FG or CF seats. Most recently I’ve switched from Sparco to Recaro mostly because all the Sparco seats which fit me well are now out of production. For some reason Recaro seems to fit everyone and they are very comfortable. Not cheap sure. I’ve had good luck with MOMO as well but it’s been a while since I’ve used them.

For harnesses we all run HANS devices so I always go with the Schroth HANS version.

I don’t use a seat back brace as they’re not appropriate for a properly mounted FIA seat. Admittedly I’ve always replaced my seat (or car and thus the seat also) at expiration or before. If my seat does expire…I’ll probably just replace it, I’ll never drill it.

#28

Teufelauto
I would like to buy an aluminum seat and I think your opinion of the 2 major brands is
very helpful for me in my decion making process. I was just about to offer Erupert66 some cash for his used Ultrashield until I read your comments. What is your height and weight ?
I’m 5’10" and 155 lbs. so your "beanpole"
comment jumped out at me.
These two brands look identical and the price is very close.
Any of you other guys who have an opinion on one versus the other please chime in and
help a newbie.
Anyone have a car in Western New York I could sit in ?
Thanks
Paul
Teufelauto wrote:

[quote]dpspeed wrote:

[quote]I’ve sat in the Pro Road Race seat made by ultrashield…it is comfortable. I have a Miata currently and had to go with the rally sport model (it has lower sides to make it easier to get in/out).

Dave[/quote]
The fit on ultrashield seats, esp the pro, is unforgiving on bean poles. There’s no cheating the shoulder belt angle: you have to be able to fit under the wings. The kirky seems the most tall for the width. this is all just my own uneducated opinion. this is a picture of my fit to my kirky. Yes, my head does turn with the wheel.
[/quote]

#29

Another question that I forgot to include.
Which layback angle - 10 or 20 ?
Thanks
Paul

#30

20 deg. I have a 10 deg pro roadrace that is good for a 5’4" person I need to ebay eventually. I cannot recall what width it is, but my butt fits in it.(too short!) That thing is only good if your pedals are too close because of the angle. Pretty compfy, though.

I am 6’ tall, 168 lbs. Sitting on the floor with my butt against a wall my shoulder is at 26.5".

My rally sport is a tad short in the shoulder. Butt fits great.

Wish I could tell you more. I’m 800 miles from my seats right now and don’t remember what their sizes were. Get a tape measure and get your shoulder hieght up against the wall. Scootch your butt as close to the wall as you can. That’s the most important measurement. The seat width really means nothing. You could always pad the sides under the cover if it were too wide.

I have no idea why the Ultrashield website doesn’t have seat measurements the way everyone else does. It’s really shamefull.