Seat mount tied into Cage:

#10

Thanks Jason!

#11

I don’t really see how that would be safer than just welding the tubes from the trans tunnel to the body under the door. In fact I think it would be stronger attached to the frame than that small longitudinal tube. You could make that tube the same size as the rest of the cage though.

#12

turbo329is wrote:

There is not a substantial frame to tie into, the metal is thin, anytime you weld two substantially different thicknesses you are always balancing your torch, mainly focused on the thicker material; It’s just not ideal. Rather - you can have a joint with a perfectly notched tube with a much thicker wall, there just isn’t much comparison.

I will post up the results when I receive a reply from the tech steward.

Regards, Nate.

#13

The frame rail may be thinner than the tube but it is stronger due to the difference in diameter. A plate would work fine to spread the load more across the sheet metal frame. You didn’t say how thick the tube you planned on using was, but I assume it is the thickness of your cage tubing or less. If I was trying to add weight there I would do it your way, if I wasn’t I would do it mine.

#14

Not trying to argue really, it’s not even my car :slight_smile:

Just trying to provide the safest solution possible, nothing more. You are absolutely right about the weight though, we definately don’t need anymore left side at all.

#15

TOOLEAN wrote:

[quote]Not trying to argue really, it’s not even my car :slight_smile:

Just trying to provide the safest solution possible, nothing more. You are absolutely right about the weight though, we definately don’t need anymore left side at all.[/quote]
You saying I need to lose weight??? :huh:

#16

Z3SpdDmn wrote:

[quote]TOOLEAN wrote:

[quote]Not trying to argue really, it’s not even my car :slight_smile:

Just trying to provide the safest solution possible, nothing more. You are absolutely right about the weight though, we definately don’t need anymore left side at all.[/quote]
You saying I need to lose weight??? :huh:[/quote]

:dry: hahaha…I mean…it would help your cross weights, ha!

#17

this is the only decent pic i have http://cerient.net/photos/spec_e30/jan27/iphone_pics/img_0136.jpg.html

#18

Thanks for the picture, that’s exactly what I am talking about.

Clean car by the way.

Regards, Nate

#19

Sorry to burst some bubbles but this question was brought to me by Anthony who I then forwarded to our Regional Competition Director who then forwarded it to Jerry Kunzman. Jerry sent me a brief email asking what was the question so I sent him this:

Michael Osborne wrote:
“If a frame is fabricated to hold the seat and is attached to the cage (door bars or rear hoop) so as the seat moves with the cage but is also attached to the car (such as the tranny tunnel) is this allowed? Or would it be considered another cage attachment point(s). This frame to hold the seat will be structural.”

Jerry Kunzman wrote:
“It would be an additional mounting pt. In some series that doesn’t matter, however.”

So I would say it is not allowed in this series as cages are regulated. I would also say that the picture with the harness mounted to a tube from the cage to the tunnel would fall under his as well.

Sorry.

Michael
Great Lakes SE30 Series Director

#20

ilateapex wrote:

[quote]Sorry to burst some bubbles but this question was brought to me by Anthony who I then forwarded to our Regional Competition Director who then forwarded it to Jerry Kunzman. Jerry sent me a brief email asking what was the question so I sent him this:

Michael Osborne wrote:
“If a frame is fabricated to hold the seat and is attached to the cage (door bars or rear hoop) so as the seat moves with the cage but is also attached to the car (such as the tranny tunnel) is this allowed? Or would it be considered another cage attachment point(s). This frame to hold the seat will be structural.”

Jerry Kunzman wrote:
“It would be an additional mounting pt. In some series that doesn’t matter, however.”

So I would say it is not allowed in this series as cages are regulated. I would also say that the picture with the harness mounted to a tube from the cage to the tunnel would fall under his as well.

Sorry.

Michael
Great Lakes SE30 Series Director[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification, no reason to appologize, that’s why I asked FIRST. But I was under the assumption that GTS and SE30 had to follow the rules for the cage, I guess I was wrong.

This maybe something for you guys amend for next season, as it seems to be an area of improvement.

Regards, Nate

#21

Coming from a circle track (stock car) background, I was VERY surprised when I saw how NASA and SCCA allow seats to be mounted. I was always under the mindset that in a bad crash, you want the seat mounted to the cage. That way, if you are harnessed in and the harness is attached to the cage everything moves together and you are safe. Now, if you have your seat mounted to the floor pan, harness mounted to both the floor and the cage, as most are, and you get into a bad wreck, the cage moves one way and the car/floor pan could move another. See where the issue lies? My new car is using an adjustable setup for now or else I would have a full seat mount welded to the cage along with seatbelt tabs. I still feel this is the safer way and hope moving forward, the sports car guys change the rules to reflect this.

#22

I’m bring this back from the dead. I’m currently building the cage in my car and would like to tie the seat mount into the cage. How can I do it legally?

#23

The cage can only have the 8 attachment points as outlined in the CCR. You could make a frame that attaches to a bar across the bottom of the main hoop and to a low door bar. You cannot have an attachment at the transmission tunnel. You could put a foot at the front right corner of the frame that “touches” the floor or tunnel. Just can’t attach.

#24

Fair enough. This seems like a rule that could stand to be changed… I’d hate for an injury to cause a change to the rule book.

#25

[attachment=1929]seatframe.jpg[/attachment]

#26

[/quote] Fair enough. This seems like a rule that could stand to be changed… I’d hate for an injury to cause a change to the rule book.[/quote]

I agree. In the name of safety, PLEASE start allowing seats tied to cages.

#27

I’m currently putting a cage in a car. Ed P posted a pic that coincides with what I was going to do. If the front right corner of the seat fram is bolted, not welded to the car, is that concidered an attachment point? Due to it being safer, I’m doing this regardless.

I was looking at the VAC aluminum seat mounts. I’m sure a ton of people use them. However, IMO, where the mounts attach to the car is a thinner material than the part where the mount secures to the seat. I would think that in a hard wreck, that thinner section would fail and the seat would then come loose from the car.

Ray

#28

You guys should then talk to SCCA, because the SE30 cage rules are based off the IT rules in SCCA. Our PRO3 series did the same.

Not that it’s not a bad idea to tie in to the cage, but remember, these cars were crash tested by German’s and for use at Autobahn speeds. We have had some massive wrecks in PRO3 (including several upside down cars at Seattle) and the factory seat mounts have NEVER ripped free. Your mounting bolt would probably shear before the floor gives way in our cars… Look underneath your car, there is a reason for all those elevation changes and extra boxed sheet metal under the driver side.

I am all for safety, but there is such thing as overkill…

#29

On the original picture posted a couple of years ago I see an inherent flaw. If the rocker is compromised the seat could/would be pushed to the center of the car tightening the shoulder belts and possible injuring the driver.

I do agree having the seat and cage tied together is a good thing but there needs to be a better way. Referring to the “NASCAR” way of mounting seats most forget that the typical CUP stock car rests on 2"x4" rails with appropriate door bar uprights and additional frame members creating a very stout seat base. Uni-body car with the “8pt” roll cage does not. The last picture posted shows tubes attached to the main hoop lower cross bar which I prefer in this situation. For this to be effective the waist and sub belts must also be attached to the tubes. This still may allow the rocker bar to push the seat in an impact but it is lessened by the size and amount of tube supporting the frame to the tube.

I have seen many cars impacted and rolled over the years and some with seats that have been broken with drivers walking away. The current safety protocol is very good but I think it could be approved on. I would hope that a NASA track tech or Shop tech would allow the seat mod seeing it for what it is and not extra frame or cage support. I know when a client comes to my shop for a “NASA” inspection I will allow it until I am told by the officials not to.