More discussion re. oiling

#21

I have a dead block here and looked…it does not neck down. If you use that port, you don’t have to use the check valve…just one more thing to go wrong…its the KISS principle. Chuck

#22

So after reading this thread, Rangers oiling project pages, looking at the oil path diagrams, web site and a few other write ups the most direct and simple way to add a Accusump to our cars would be the following:

3Qt Accusmp, manual valve, then directly to the block OE oil pressure switch port via a 1/2 NPT to metric 12.5x1.5 adapter that is a direct path to the oil galley.

This approach will be all manual with minimal moving parts to fail like electric valves and check valves hopping that simple = reliable. Also it seems going direct to the oil galley is one of the best approaches from what I have read and seems logical. Direct to oil galley ='s no check valve I think since its not in a loop with the oil cooler.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Jason

#23

I’d say that your approach is fine, but I’d still put the checkvalve in so that filling your oil cooler and oil filter doesn’t delay the flow of oil to the bearings.

The checkvalve can go in the cooler return line. You’ll also have to figure out where to measure oil pressure. Both the sump and the checkvalve throw additional variables into the issue of measuring oil pressure.

#24

When I looked at the oil path diagram on your site I think the only path for the oil to go from the Accusump to the block via the OE pressure port is either to the bearings via the galley or back into the oil filter and down to the oil pump. I read someplace that you cant force oil through the pump in the wrong direction.

This approach bypasses the entire oil cooler loop so I don’t see a place to put a check valve.

What kind of hose did you use. When I did some research on socketless connectors it seems they need a special hose that tightens on the barbs as pressure tries to force the fitting out. Kinda like a Chinese finger puzzle. I cant find any steel braided socketless hose out there. Or I am just not understanding something. Did you get your hose and fitting from a local hydraulic shop?

#25

Buy some 1/2" stainless steel mesh hose and then get your fittings from the hydraulic shop. When ask the hydraulic shop “this will hold 90psi, right?”, they will burst out laughing.

Get good hose from Pegasus or Earl’s. Don’t get cheap bling oriented hose from mass market shops.

The oil path back into the oil filter is non trivial. The path is actually back thru the oil cooler, then to the oil filter and pump. If the pump is sucking air, then the oil from the Accusump will preferentially pressurize the 4’ of hose, oil cooler and oil filter. The bearings are very hard to push oil thru, but the hose/cooler/filter are easy oil routes.

I don’t know how long it will take for the sump to pressurize the hose/cooler/filter. Lets say it’s only 1 sec. Why engineer a system that will allow the bearings to run dry for 1 sec every left turn and many right turns?

Take the return line off of your oil cooler and take it to the hydraulic shop with your checkvalve and tell them to cut the return line and insert the checkvalve. They are a hydraulic repair shop, they’re not going to say “well gee, how are we going to do that?”. They’re just going to say “ok, come back tomorrow”. It’s what they do.

I know now just how hard it is to push oil thru the bearings. When I pressurize the bearings by opening the sump valve and then closing it, the bearings stay pressurized for minutes, not seconds.

One change I have to make is to add some heat shielding to my line that goes under my exhaust manifold and then into the passenger footwell for the sump. There is a plastic ring on a fitting down there and it melted.

#26

Makes sense. The diagram does not account for the factory oil thermostat to the cooler. If the thermostat is closed my approach will work. If its open and it always will be on track unless you ice race in Alaska the oil cooler loop is in play and that must be a few qts of oil.

Then I need to replace the outbound “hot” stock line from the oil thermostat to the cooler to add the check valve. That adds to the effort and parts list to do it right.

Anyone know which of the two lines is the out bound “hot” line from the stock oil thermostat to the cooler?

#27

Checkvalve should go into the return line, not the to-oil-cooler line. You want the checkvalve as close to the sump line as possible.

OEM thermostat isn’t an issue. We’re not talking about the behavior of cold oil.

#28

There is no need for a check valve if you use the stock OP port…because, using a 3 quart accumulator there is more than enough capacity to fill all the gallerys as needed. The capacity of a remote filter/cooler is just less that a quart. If the pump sucks air, the accumulator immediately tries to put oil to the pump and the exit line to the oil cooler, which will require very little oil. The pump cannot take oil from the pressure side, so the vast majority of the oil must go to the bearings until the pump re-establishes pressure. Chuck

#29

cwbaader wrote:

Chuck you know infinitly more about these motors then I do, but even if it takes only 1sec to pressurize the oil cooler and oil filter, why design a system that will allow the bearings to run dry for a second? At 6k rpms that’s each of our 13? bearings doing 60 revs with no oil flow.

#30

Actually it is 21 bearings:laugh:

Consider the whole oiling system a pressure vessel. (Per physics class, all points in a pressure vessel have equal pressure) As pressure drops in one spot (pump) the accumulator, which is already at high pressure, fills the void and the pressure should not drop until the volume of the accumulator is exhausted. Since the volume of the accumulator is considerably larger that the complete oiling system including remove filter/cooler, the motor should not see and OP change. In my experience, the OP will fluctuate as the pump draws air so the accumulator will fill the void.

I plan of doing the accumulator soon and will plumb my OP gauge to the back of the accumulator. Chuck

#31

Canton makes a sandwich adapter with a single port for connection to an Accusump. This could make the checkvalve unnecessary because the sump line would be hitting the oiling system just after the pump instead of just before the galley.

Almost as good, in terms of not needing the checkvalve, you could plumb the sump line into the oil system just after the oil filter by putting a T connector into the oil filter end of the line “to” the oil cooler. This was an earlier idea of Mahoney’s.

#32

Yes but the part of that plan I don’t like is Ting into the factory oil line or making a custom line with a T. If I am already making one line, mind as well do 2 and since I am in there (Whoossshhhh down the slippery slope I go) I double the cost of the project and add a larger oil cooler. Why not most of the parts are already out of the car, no need to do it twice.

If I can go directly into the OE switch port in the galley and get positive results I can not hop on that slope and ride it to the bottom complete with empty wallet and angry wife.

Its also a lot less labor since you don’t need to touch the extra lines. I can satisfy my neurosis of oiling issues and keep the cost and design as low and simple as possible. I so don’t feel like learning how to rebuild an engine due to bearing failure. At least not for a long time.

#33

Understood. But don’t underestimate the cost savings you can get by going with steel and brass hydraulic fittings. I ran by the hydraulic shop this afternoon and bought 5 fittings for $20. $20 would not have bought 1 aluminum aviation grade fitting.

Where will you put your oil pressure sensor?

Be sure to put a heat shield on the sump line if it goes under the manifold. It’s easier to do it before you hook your hoses up, rather then after. Which is where I am now.

#34

All in favor of Ranger making oil line kits and selling them say aye. Aye. I know I have done stainless steel oil lines with AN fittings before, and it was a pain in the ass and cost a fortune.

#35

Install your OP units on the accusump to see exactly what your OP is doing. That is where I plan to put mine. CB

#36

cwbaader wrote:

I put a small 2nd OP gauge on my dash last night just for that.

I did some updating on the Oiling Project doc at http://www.gress.org/Home/Cars/TrackTales/DIY/OilingSystem%20Improvements/OilingPlan.htm It now includes the final schematic, plus detailed diagrams showing most of the fittings. With prices.

#37

Ranger wrote:

I already have my OP sending unit in a sandwich plate at the stock oil filter location. I also have an oil temp sending in there also.

I do need to find a local hydraulic shop. I was looking at some fittings online and doing it via mail will be painful as you need to change things.

One question on connecting to the OE block pressure switch location. I tore down a motor for a friend and noticed how close that switch sits to the block and is kinda recessed in the side of the block. I could not get a wrench on it and needed a deep well socked to get it out. Is there enough room to get a metric to AN or NTP or . . . connector in there and then run a line from it. Cant use a deep well socekd to tighten the line down. I am not sure there is enough room to get a wrench on the line connector since the block will interfere.

#38

Socketless connector question. My understanding of socketless connectors, at least the Aeroqip AN kind, need specific socketless hose type to get a proper seal. Its softer than braided steal and the inner braids actually grip the barbs harder as presure tries to push the hose off the fitting.

I have never seen braided steal hose for socketless connectors. Ranger are you using the standard AN hose (probably -8 I think for .5 ID)type with the push on steel connectors? Did the hydraulic shop say they will hold even though the hose is of a different construction than specific socketless hose.

I am confident the hose clamps will keep it on regardless.

#39

Can you send me a link to your sandwich adapter? I’d like to look at it. I looked all over for a sandwich adapter that would help me connect sensors, but I never found one that worked. All the sandwich adapters had inlet/outlet fittings that you had to use. So it would worked only if you hooked the oil cooler to it or something…which I could have done. There’s infinite ways to skin this cat.

Re. OEM oil pressure port. I ended up with a couple different 12X1.5 to 1/8NPT adapters. Both fit fine. I ultimately used the one that had the port pointing up instead of down. I can see how it would be tight if someone tried to thread a sensor right in.

Re. hose. I did some reading early on about the different kinds of hose and their preferred connectors. It got kinda hard to follow. So many kinds of hoses and connectors and everyone mixing generic words with brandnames. In the end I bought generic hose that seemed to be made for generic barbed fittings.

I talked to the hydraulic shop about this specific issue. Recall that they told me that I didn’t even need to use hose clamps. They perceived me as worrying about nothing. To them 60-80psi is a joke. Their bottom end hose is 300psi and they were adamate that it didn’t need clamps. They thought that it was silly to worry about some subtlty about how one hose might prefer one barb design over another.

Like everything else, I don’t have personal experience in this to rely on. All I can do is read a lot, ask smart folks lots of questions and try to separate truth from well-intentioned wivestales.

#40

Ranger wrote:

[quote]Can you send me a link to your sandwich adapter? I’d like to look at it.
[/quote]I used this one. http://www.factory3performance.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=288
Easy way to get some sensors into your oil stream and makes changeing your oil harder. For some reason I felt I needed to retain the factory pressure switch so I went with the plate. The switch does not do any good since I think it comes on at like 5psi. Its a “your engine just blew up” indicator. But removing it now will give me a good place to add my accusump.

[quote]I ended up with a couple different 12X1.5 to 1/8NPT adapters.[/quote]Any gut feel if a 12x1.5 to 1/2 NTP will be able to fit. Seems Accusump likes -10 (.62 ID) hose for 2 & 3 qt models so I would not want to use less than a .5 ID hose and fittings if possible. Would probably get restrictive.

[quote]They perceived me as worrying about nothing. To them 60-80psi is a joke. [/quote] Thats the difference between those who know by doing it for a living and those that do it as a hobby and read a lot. I obsess about details like that and those that know tell me I am worrying for no reason. They are probably right but I usually do it anyway.:lol:

The first time I added a extra oil cooler to a 911 my head almost fell off with all the new stuff to learn regarding hose, fittings, standards . . . converting metric to AN to JIC to BSP to . . . Its still a bit confusing but does not make me dizzy anymore. But at least I learn something.