Is LSD really an advantage?

#21

Yes I do, as I stated before I mixed it with 75W90. I’ll gladly run just straight 75W90. But I don’t think we want to get into the job of specifiying particular fluids that are allowed.

You can’t expect us to test the effects of every fluid and or additive that is impossible to test for. What do you suggest? What you’re proposing is not reasonable, we can debate all we want about the legality of NS fluid but the fact is we can’t reasonably test for it. Are you going to test varying amounts of Friction Modifier at Barber as well? What does the knowledge of how NS fluid effects lock up have anything to do with max diff breakway value.

Well it depends how you read “OEM equivalent”. I see your point about the NS fluid but I think you’re going down a path that doesn’t make much sense. Are you suggesting that we should specify legal fluids that are “OEM Equivalent”. This seems over the top to me and a waste of time. Its not like we are going to be able to test the fluid. I think its a very bad idea to limit anything that you can’t test for. Does that mean we can only run a specific weight of oil because it is not “OEM equivalent”. Do you see where I’m going here?

I’m still not sure what your beef is? What are you calling out exactly? The definition of the fluids?

#22

I’m still not sure what your beef is? What are you calling out exactly? The definition of the fluids?[/quote]

My complaint: There is now a disqualification rule that was written when those that wrote it cannot tell a newbe racer or an experienced racer what effect fluid type can have on differential lock-up.

We agree, it is the racer’s resposibility to set his/her car up. You’re correct, splitting hairs over the legality of Red Line NS is futile.

I’ll ask again, do relay to those that are a part of the rules process, that the series has grown and the racer group could use some of their wise counsel as they set up their cars to conform to the rules standards.

Thanks, Robert Patton

#23

Victor - keep looking - you will find one for a lower price.
Ed

Regarding Robert’s debate on the NS, is there really a need to designate a diff lube? You would need to test the difference between Royal Purple, Amsoil, Mobil-1, Lucas oil, etc. which I am certain are different enough from each other but still would be considered OEM. If the rule is based on lock-up is it really an issue? Any fluid designated as diff lube seems to be allowed. Do we really know what the amount of LS additive there is in OEM diff lube? The other issue is the age of the disks, which whether you use NS or not, the rule may allow someone to come up to spec, versus going above spec. Are all 93 octane fuels equivalent? Not sure where this discussion is going.
Ed

#24

Ed, the discussion is going nowhere, although it did prove somewhat enlightening (and entertaining?).

Simon and others are correct.

Lubes won’t be, nor do they need to be, tested.

A discussion on the OEM lubricant and the word “substitution” has cleared the way for racers to try Red Line NS. No one can tell you what to expect from its use.

I may try some Z-Max and/or STP in the engine, too.

Set your car up with whatever lube. Don’t exceed 65 on the differential test.

Regards, Robert Patton

#25

mskeen wrote:

[quote]Gasman wrote:

Yes, it would be negated by the first 7 words of 9.3.11.6.[/quote]

To a logical person yes. But I never thought the rules were vague on bar bells welded to wheel rims either. Those first seven words do not include “that hasn’t been welded”

#26

Gasman wrote:

[quote]mskeen wrote:

[quote]Gasman wrote:

Yes, it would be negated by the first 7 words of 9.3.11.6.[/quote]

To a logical person yes. But I never thought the rules were vague on bar bells welded to wheel rims either. Those first seven words do not include “that hasn’t been welded”[/quote]

A limited slip diff that has been welded is no longer a limited slip diff, so none of 9.3.11.6 would apply (even in the most tortured interpretation of the rules).

A welded diff is enough of its own penalty that it is exempt from the break-away test.

Steve D.

#27

Steve, I know we are mincing words and symantics, but do you really not see the point?

#28

I don’t think it is mincing words. You are permitted to have one of 3 types of diff. Open (no breakway test), locked (no breakaway test), or LSD (dubious breakaway test).

I do see Robert’s point that we have a rule on the books that has no clear, repeatable conditions under which compliance can be verified due to the heat buildup in a diff on the track.

If I were to be DQ’d for failing a “hot” breakaway test, I would simply appeal that test. Unless the tech guys send me back out on track to heat up the diff, I can allow the diff to get close to ambient temperature.

All that said with the knowledge that I am running an untouched LSD and don’t know what the hot, cold, really hot, and/or hot-but-cooling-down breakway torque points are. Shame on me.

Steve D.

#29

Steve D wrote: And that said with the knowledge that I am running an untouched LSD and don’t know what the hot, cold, really hot, and/or hot-but-cooling-down breakway torque points are. Shame on me.

Steve D.[/quote]

Darn it, Steve, I thought this discussion was over. Your, “Shame on me,” could be amended to shame on me for not helping out a fellow racer. Let’s compare notes at Barber and share the information with any/all that are interested.

Shall I bring you some Red Line NS to tryout? An infrared temp gun?

Regards, Robert

#30

If y’all want that last little bit of horsepower, you can do what the Spec Miata guys do…ATF in trans and rear end. Remember, though, diffs for them are throw away items after two races.

In addition, friction modifiers are just that. They reduce friction. In a trans it makes shifting almost impossible, and in a LS diff, forget about the LS. There are EP lube powers available to add to any oil that will really improve the lubricity. For our applications, though, useless. Chuck

#31

just to add some levity (i.e. extraneous input) to this otherwise legitimate discussion …
I’ve been in Barcelona on work for the last week (after also traveling for work for the prior two weeks), and, damn, “approved lubricants” have a different meaning over here, especially after 2am in the nightclubs in the Olympic Park …, damn, I don’t think Ray could help me here :wink:

Patton wrote:

[quote]Elephant4 wrote:

[quote]Patton wrote:
#1[quote]Simon, do you use the “NS” RedLine oil?[/quote]

Yes sometimes I’ll mix in some with the regular 75W90.

#2Patton wrote:

Nope but I don’t think it really makes a whole lot of difference.

#3Patton wrote:

I don’t think there is such a thing as an approved lubricant.

New Post…
Simon and others that make and enforce the rules, see the above three items:

#1 So, you use NS lube?
#2 You don’t know? How can a rule as far reaching as a DQ be implemented if the rules guys don’t know? Trust me, I don’t know either, but I’m gonna find out for you guys at Barber next weekend.

#3 Check out 3.4 and then argue the definition of “substituted” as it pertains to engine oil (9.3.1.6.1) and diff oil (9.3.11.5).The way I read it the NS oil did not come in the diff as an “OEM equivalent.”

Bottom line: agree, it is the racer’s responsibility. My point is that a rule has blindly been made where no one did the exhaustive research to advise the racer. I’ve debated this with Taylor and Legget. Simon, you took the bait on this one.

Trust me, I’m only calling this out because I want it to be a better series.

Back when it was a bunch of bubba racers none of this hair splitting stuff mattered. With the explosion of racers comming into the sport it now does.

Regards, Robert Patton

PS, I’m not sure that…
And I think we need to talk to Ray Korman/get some senior help.[/quote]

#32

Robert - Entertaining, somewhat enlightening. We have used Redline 75/90, NS, Mobil-1, and Royal Purple. Did not notice any difference. We did notice a difference after replacing the disks.
Ed

#33

Ok, so I got an entire car for $500 from which I’m going to get the LSD since it’s a 325is, and the first thing I did was look at the metal tag and it says “3.37S” or viceversa, I was upside down in a dark garage with a flashlight.
So, I got a car for the price of a differential, now I need you guys to help me get the proper lubricant, since my chemistry is only related to the human body and farmacology, but what kind of tests you want to run on the lubricants? You can get the info from different sources.
And I’ve been in Barcelona when I was single, and an “approved lubricant” inside the clubs range from plain water, to vodka, and anything else in the middle.:wink:

#34

You can do no better that AMsoil gear lube…90-120(?) You do not need to add the GM friction modifier for a LS diff. Chuck