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And to add to my point, there is also no real punishment for breaking the rules. How many times have you heard of someone not knowing they had a chip in their car? Under weight is one thing, illegal parts is another. More punishment, less cheating…
Peter Thibault
Whatever happened to the discussion a few years back regarding a data logger being transferred amongst cars. Supposedly this device could track hp via acceleration rate/hp?
Throw it on few cars while gridded and see what disparity exists… I,m not talking about producing exact hp numbers but I bet you could detect some outliers…
Each spec series director would have one, paid for by a general fund, and would utilize at each race weekend. No prior knowledge of what car it,s going on.
pick apart!
[quote=“PDS” post=69267]Whatever happened to the discussion a few years back regarding a data logger being transferred amongst cars. Supposedly this device could track hp via acceleration rate/hp?
Throw it on few cars while gridded and see what disparity exists… I,m not talking about producing exact hp numbers but I bet you could detect some outliers…
Each spec series director would have one, paid for by a general fund, and would utilize at each race weekend. No prior knowledge of what car it,s going on.[/quote]
My understanding is that when that was tried the results were all over the map.
While I’m not opposed to dyno testing I’m not particularly in favor of it either. There are too many variables that affect the results for chassis dyno. A water brake engine dyno is another matter, but who wants to pull their engine for a dyno test. The condition of the tires, how perfectly aligned they are on the roller, ambient temperature, engine temperature, etc. are all factors.
Then there is the issue of how you evaluate the results. Peak numbers aren’t as important as the shape of the torque curve (i.e. area under the torque curve). A “cheater” motor that had a flatter torque curve than normal from, say 4800-6200, that met the peak number requirement would blow the doors off of a legal motor.
[quote=“PDS” post=69267]Whatever happened to the discussion a few years back regarding a data logger being transferred amongst cars. Supposedly this device could track hp via acceleration rate/hp?
Throw it on few cars while gridded and see what disparity exists… I,m not talking about producing exact hp numbers but I bet you could detect some outliers…
Each spec series director would have one, paid for by a general fund, and would utilize at each race weekend. No prior knowledge of what car it,s going on.
pick apart![/quote]
Last Spring I spent some time trying to use my years of Traqmate data to evaluate the engine that came in New #6. It seemed to me to be low on power and I wanted to see if the data confirmed that. Even with years of data to draw upon, my own data and others, it was surprisingly difficult to set up comparisons that I felt were valid. I would not have understood just how hard it was, until I actually tried to do it.
There’s a number of variables that are hard to control for. A couple off the top of my head are:
HP and torque are rpm dependent so a comparison requires that the two cars be at the same speed.
Inevitably that “same speed” occurs at different places on the track so there has to be a nice flat stretch so the two different places are both flat.
How do you account for car weight and wheel weight? 8lbs of wheel weight is significant. Less so is the 30lbs of gas that we burn in a race.
There’s no good way to control for head/tailwinds or drafting? Even being 50’ behind another car has an impact.
Temp makes a difference.
There were other issues, that’s just an example. It took me 4hrs of studying data before I was ready to say “New #6 is at least 10hp under my best historical engines”. If it hadn’t been for CMP’s dead flat front straight, I might not have been able to do it at all.
7 AFM’s $500 delivered Cont US
Spend your way to the front by spending some $ with me
Thanks
I talked to a guy at e30tech last year that had created a little niche by rebuilding and calibrating AFMs. It wasn’t cheap tho.
I have a F/A meter on my dash. In Old #6 it was connected to the Traqmate so I was collecting F/A data, but I’m less obsessed now and I never got around to connecting it to the TM in New #6. IMO that’s the way to deal with optimization. Change something, go do a track day or two, study the data and then change something else. That’d be a lot more reliable than the experimenting on the dyno when the DME doesn’t have time to adapt Long Term Fuel Trim (LTFT) to whatever you changed.
Back a couple years ago I had an AFM that had it’s spring adjusted a few clicks. As a result my engine was running scary lean. This is all in an old thread. Your AFM matters.
Has anyone on this thred ever talked to a competitor in the paddock about their engine? Isn’t that the first step?
A few years back we did an ECU swap, the car that got mine would not run. On Sunday that car won with it’s original ECU…
By the way, I have a windshield that is 1.38 lbs lighter than all my other e30 windshields, I will sell it for $500, it is used.
Al
[quote=“FARTBREF” post=69281]
By the way, I have a windshield that is 1.38 lbs lighter than all my other e30 windshields, I will sell it for $500, it is used.
Al[/quote]
:laugh: Now THAT is funny right thur. In my younger years, I’d be on this.
A threat without action or consequence is simply a bluff.
That being the case, one must be ready to have their bluff called. If you loose having bluffed, the next bet will no doubt be an “all in” call.
[quote=“Foglght” post=69260][quote=“cwbaader” post=69258]Musings…if you don’t check everyone on the same dyno a hp rule is useless. Example…the GTS series.
[/quote]
I am WAY more interested to see what happens next year with the new tire. I ran two 2009 tires on the left side of my car during the final race at nationals and picked up about 1 second compared to the 2011 tires.[/quote]
Here is a great example of something…it’s not always the engine. At mid-ohio, the locals and freqent runners know one thing most do not, and that is what the course likes. The inside poop was true that you should run your most beat up, older tires that are short of cording…that track LOVES RA-1’s at that stage. New tires…no big deal.
All this talk of cheaters and such is fine, but let’s face it, the group knows who is cheating and who is not by their driving vs. their finish. Come on, you all have seen the guy who blows apex’s and looks more like he should run in Fomula-D, but still pulls on you out of a corner he went for style points in. If you have to cheat for a $8, you are welcome to one of mine. Now take it and go home.
Just my .02
[quote=“Fooshe” post=69291][quote=“Foglght” post=69260][quote=“cwbaader” post=69258]Musings…if you don’t check everyone on the same dyno a hp rule is useless. Example…the GTS series.
[/quote]
I am WAY more interested to see what happens next year with the new tire. I ran two 2009 tires on the left side of my car during the final race at nationals and picked up about 1 second compared to the 2011 tires.[/quote]
Here is a great example of something…it’s not always the engine. At mid-ohio, the locals and freqent runners know one thing most do not, and that is what the course likes. The inside poop was true that you should run your most beat up, older tires that are short of cording…that track LOVES RA-1’s at that stage. New tires…no big deal.
All this talk of cheaters and such is fine, but let’s face it, the group knows who is cheating and who is not by their driving vs. their finish. Come on, you all have seen the guy who blows apex’s and looks more like he should run in Fomula-D, but still pulls on you out of a corner he went for style points in. If you have to cheat for a $8, you are welcome to one of mine. Now take it and go home.
Just my .02[/quote]
I’m getting confused about the $8 comments. Are you just referring to the trophies?
If so, that’s a bit naive.
Some guys have deals with sponsors outside of the main contingencies. The main ones from Toyo and bimmerworld add up to about $500 for the weekend for 2 wins. I wish it were more, but such is racing. Add in other sponsorships, and you could be talking about $1k+ per weekend and that is nothing to sneeze at.
A threat without action or consequence is simply a bluff.
That being the case, one must be ready to have their bluff called. If you loose having bluffed, the next bet will no doubt be an “all in” call.[/quote]
Well, that’s what I’m saying. We’re budget racers. The threat of a teardown is empty because no individual can afford the rebuild if wrong. If there’s a community fund (and therefore a teardown costs “less”), the threat of action is REAL.
Seems too simple.
Give us a max rule as a guideline.
It has to be a guideline, not an ablosute number. We,ve been doing this for almost 10 years. We’re, collectively, not stupid. It isn’t necessarily the number, rather the area under the curve. but a number tells new goobers in the series that we are watching. 160/160 sounds good to me. However, I don’t make the rules.
Test cars on same day/same dyno/same place. Otherwise the number(s) are meaningless.
Outliers are handed some strict penalty weight.
Have a nice day/year/don’t come back.
No tear downs, no questions, have a nice day (or year, until your engine comes to be tested with a curve like everyone else’s) driving around with your penalty weight.
RP
160/160…Well I guess I am “Illegal”…Well at least running the “TFB Vert” next year I won’t have to worry as that motor has #'s in the 150’s.
Sad thing is the Vert has a completely bone stock block and it almost touches this “max HP” rule. Going to need some restrictor plates for our built engines I guess.
Read closely, guys, 160/160 is a guideline. Curious, have numbers at the Nationals ever been posted that were higher?
I saw a 161 with a junkyard engine from a 110k automatic convertible.However there was nothing else to compare it to on that cool day.
It was a cool day. Yep, temperature has a great effect.
RP
I’ve built a number of engines and have been party to the inner secrets of many more. It’s hard for me to accept the idea of high mileage junkyard engines getting over 155hp/torque. Perhaps what is really happening is that these are mystery engines with mystery engine management. It would be a mistake to assume that a “junkyard” engine and management is 100% stock. It takes a lot of work and things have to be very cherry to get >155hp/torque. It doesn’t just happen by accident.
Some of you will recall that engine that the community installed for me at CMP when I was a newby. It turned out that the engine had a head from a 323. I didn’t figure that out, Metric Mechanic did when I sent it to them as a “core”. Who would have ever guessed the a euro only head would show up on a junkyard engine? Shit happens. “Mystery” is mystery. "Mystery isn’t stock unless you know for absolute sure it’s stock. And that is surprisingly hard.
[quote=“Foglght” post=69292][quote=“Fooshe” post=69291][quote=“Foglght” post=69260][quote=“cwbaader” post=69258]Musings…if you don’t check everyone on the same dyno a hp rule is useless. Example…the GTS series.
[/quote]
I am WAY more interested to see what happens next year with the new tire. I ran two 2009 tires on the left side of my car during the final race at nationals and picked up about 1 second compared to the 2011 tires.[/quote]
Here is a great example of something…it’s not always the engine. At mid-ohio, the locals and freqent runners know one thing most do not, and that is what the course likes. The inside poop was true that you should run your most beat up, older tires that are short of cording…that track LOVES RA-1’s at that stage. New tires…no big deal.
All this talk of cheaters and such is fine, but let’s face it, the group knows who is cheating and who is not by their driving vs. their finish. Come on, you all have seen the guy who blows apex’s and looks more like he should run in Fomula-D, but still pulls on you out of a corner he went for style points in. If you have to cheat for a $8, you are welcome to one of mine. Now take it and go home.
Just my .02[/quote]
I’m getting confused about the $8 comments. Are you just referring to the trophies?
If so, that’s a bit naive.
Some guys have deals with sponsors outside of the main contingencies. The main ones from Toyo and bimmerworld add up to about $500 for the weekend for 2 wins. I wish it were more, but such is racing. Add in other sponsorships, and you could be talking about $1k+ per weekend and that is nothing to sneeze at.[/quote]
I was…and you know what, you’re sort of right. I was not thinking in the frame of mind.
I am not so naive that I don’t know there is contingency $ and items of value up for grabs and guys will get creative to get what they can, but I am also speaking form the group I race with. We still race hard and clean…well, most of us. for the most part, we know who can drive and who is where in the learning curve. We see a cheater and we deal with it our own special way.
Now that I am back in the real world, I think we could pound this into the ground and some will still find a way to cheat. I say do what we would do out here…take them out behind the shed for a “Come to Jesus” talk.
Please…just you sitting in the car is like cheating!
Just tuggin’ your chain Steveo!
I am afraid of you in the vert…VERY afraid!