Hoosiers?

[TrackRat]

[quote=“Speedracer” post=62022]for 40 more dollars we could just go to a 225 tire and the increase in tire would result in less heat exhaustion of the tires due to being so undersized, as well as make the cars handle and brake better. if were going to talk about re-valving and suspension tuning, why don’t we talk about something that could actually be done while still keeping this a spec class and the current toyo contingencies in place. i am a big advocate of a wider tire!!! its the best bang for the buck and it will keep the most people happy, Nasa gets to keep the sponsor happy and their racers happy, from my perspective its win-win!

Well said and right on point. Simple solution to a basic problem.

Done[/quote]

+1 Great, simple solution.

[Steve_D]

[quote=“Fooshe” post=62024][quote=“Speedracer” post=62022]for 40 more dollars we could just go to a 225 tire…

Well said and right on point. Simple solution to a basic problem.

Done[/quote]

+1 Great, simple solution.[/quote]
Depending on wheel offset, that might cause fender rubbing?

Hmmm. 0.8" wider would help, but 0.8" taller so effective gearing is hurt by 3.5% (your 3.73 just became a 3.61). 12 lbs more rotating mass exactly where you don’t want it. Sounds like we need Ranger to test this hypothesis. :laugh:

[Steve_D]

PS - Is that $40 more per tire?

[philstireservice]

for 40 more dollars we could just go to a 225 tire and the increase in tire would result in less heat exhaustion of the tires due to being so undersized, as well as make the cars handle and brake better. if were going to talk about re-valving and suspension tuning, why don’t we talk about something that could actually be done while still keeping this a spec class and the current toyo contingencies in place. i am a big advocate of a wider tire!!! its the best bang for the buck and it will keep the most people happy, Nasa gets to keep the sponsor happy and their racers happy, from my perspective its win-win!

There would be some benefit to this - but a bigger/wider tire on the same width wheel at the same car weight might not solve a so called tire problem. There is a video of a wheel and tire in motion on the track on a Spec E30 in here somewhere, watch the movement on the wheel, it’s incredible how much lateral movement the tire goes through. The most wear is 1/3 inwards from the outside. The “groove of doom” as it is called. This is caused by not enough negative camber and a narrow wheel. The outside of the tire actually tucks in and the car rolls on the inner 1/3 of the tread instead.

[Fooshe]

[quote=“Foglght” post=62030]I believe you are not understanding what I am saying.

The most current example I can think of is what SCCA is doing with the “B-spec” cars right now.

There are multiple companies putting together suspension kits. Many of them are using a benchmark tire and developing the suspension kit around that tire. I’m not talking about having adjustable shocks (no way would I want that).

All I am merely saying is that you have really no data to support the idea that moving away from the Toyos would cause the car to handle tires more efficiently. In fact, depending on your suspension settings, corner weighting and driving style it could get worse.

Someone mentioned getting a wider tire. It is possible that this could work. However, just imo, I doubt that will solve the actual problem.

When I said, “It’s what the pros do,” the example is tire life. Many of these teams will have a shock guy on site to take data and revalve the shocks for every track. This amounts to the difference between a guy being able to push his car 10/10’ths and finishing the race, as opposed to a team that can’t quite figure it out and having to drive slower because they can’t get the tires to last a full race. They all use the spec tire. I’m also not suggesting we have shock guys follow us around. There can be a compromise here.[/quote]

Ok, I think I hear you saying perhaps we use a different spec set up all together.

If so, I agree that perhaps a better shock with a more specific valving would be more beneficial; and I know some exist out there right now.

As for the wider tire, I have run a 225/50/15 in an enduro on the same wheels I use in the SE30 races. I can tell you that the car does handle better. Personally, I wish they would make a 215/50/15 as it really seems to be the best all around size for the car. But given what we have to work with, that is not going happen any time soon.

All of this is for not if NASA and Toyo don’t want to do it, so for now let’s just get in our cars and drive them.

[Fooshe]

[quote=“TrackRat” post=62033][quote=“Fooshe” post=62024][quote=“Speedracer” post=62022]for 40 more dollars we could just go to a 225 tire…

Well said and right on point. Simple solution to a basic problem.

Done[/quote]

+1 Great, simple solution.[/quote]
Depending on wheel offset, that might cause fender rubbing?

Hmmm. 0.8" wider would help, but 0.8" taller so effective gearing is hurt by 3.5% (your 3.73 just became a 3.61). 12 lbs more rotating mass exactly where you don’t want it. Sounds like we need Ranger to test this hypothesis. :laugh:[/quote]

Ok, simple fix…let’s go to 4.10’s :woohoo:

(Dear Lord…my head hurts) :S

[Foglght]

[quote=“Fooshe” post=62037][quote=“Foglght” post=62030]I believe you are not understanding what I am saying.

The most current example I can think of is what SCCA is doing with the “B-spec” cars right now.

There are multiple companies putting together suspension kits. Many of them are using a benchmark tire and developing the suspension kit around that tire. I’m not talking about having adjustable shocks (no way would I want that).

All I am merely saying is that you have really no data to support the idea that moving away from the Toyos would cause the car to handle tires more efficiently. In fact, depending on your suspension settings, corner weighting and driving style it could get worse.

Someone mentioned getting a wider tire. It is possible that this could work. However, just imo, I doubt that will solve the actual problem.

When I said, “It’s what the pros do,” the example is tire life. Many of these teams will have a shock guy on site to take data and revalve the shocks for every track. This amounts to the difference between a guy being able to push his car 10/10’ths and finishing the race, as opposed to a team that can’t quite figure it out and having to drive slower because they can’t get the tires to last a full race. They all use the spec tire. I’m also not suggesting we have shock guys follow us around. There can be a compromise here.[/quote]

Ok, I think I hear you saying perhaps we use a different spec set up all together.

If so, I agree that perhaps a better shock with a more specific valving would be more beneficial; and I know some exist out there right now.

As for the wider tire, I have run a 225/50/15 in an enduro on the same wheels I use in the SE30 races. I can tell you that the car does handle better. Personally, I wish they would make a 215/50/15 as it really seems to be the best all around size for the car. But given what we have to work with, that is not going happen any time soon.

All of this is for not if NASA and Toyo don’t want to do it, so for now let’s just get in our cars and drive them.[/quote]

I was never concerned with how well the car handles. You drive the car to its limits, whatever that may be. We drive slow cars.

All I am concerned with is making the tire last as long as possible, or moving to another tire that is more suited to our suspension setups.

As someone mentioned, the tire rolls under a lot. Probably because the sidewall is soft. There are plenty of tires with stiffer sidewalls, which would allow for less negative camber, and probably better transitional responses.

[Fooshe]

[quote=“Foglght” post=62041] I was never concerned with how well the car handles. You drive the car to its limits, whatever that may be. We drive slow cars.

All I am concerned with is making the tire last as long as possible, or moving to another tire that is more suited to our suspension setups.

As someone mentioned, the tire rolls under a lot. Probably because the sidewall is soft. There are plenty of tires with stiffer sidewalls, which would allow for less negative camber, and probably better transitional responses.[/quote]

Well, I can now see better what you are saying and we are actually on the same page.

I agree that there are tires out there that have better sidewalls. Now, the $64,000 question(s)…What do they cost? What are their contingency program numbers? Or do they have one at all? and can they handle the production needed to support a race program?

[Speedracer]

its $40 total according to AIM tires’ prices, we currently pay $157.72 per spec RA1 in the 205 size, if we were to go to the 225, the price per tire would be $169.00 per tire, the difference is a little over 40 dollars.

i agree that a stiffer side wall is what we actually need to get more even tire wear. i did some testing with our lemons car and found the the best setup for the 205 faulken arena 615K was on an 8" rim, it stretched it flat and we saw the best wear characteristics. so another option although this is expensive, would be to allow the use of 8" wheels on the 205 tire, however I’m not so sure i agree with that one.

As for the offset, i have seen plenty of e30s with 15x8 TR motorsports and 225/50 on them, i highly doubt rubbing would be an issue.

Steve; where did you get the .8" taller? the tire would still be a 50 series sidewall…

All I’m bringing to the table here is that this entire thread is about the unhappiness with our current setup and that it can’t be changed easily without straying away from a cheap series, or because a sponsor through nasa. so what i have suggested keeps everyone happy in the series, if you want a change in the series for the better i think going to a wider tire is the best bang for the buck. Correct me if I’m wrong here but i just don’t see any other feasible change to made, hell i know some of the racers out there have the money, why don’t we tell them to go give it a shot and come back with some real feedback. actually, i may just go try it in a GTS race…

[Fooshe]

Hey Speed…you asked “Steve; where did you get the .8” taller? the tire would still be a 50 series sidewall…"

At the risk of stepping on Steve’s Toes, the answer is rather simple. The sidewall number is a reflection of the height ratio to the tire’s width. Consequently, with a wider tire, the sidewall height will grow with it. Logically, the weight will, too. While I don’t know the propeller head math involved, the fact that the sidewall ratio is related to the tire width is the critical part of the answer.

[cosm3os]

Steve; where did you get the .8" taller? the tire would still be a 50 series sidewall…

50 is a ratio, not a size, so as the tire gets wider (while still keeping the same aspect ratio), the tire gets taller.

[barkerdm]

It’s not 50 series, is an aspect ratio between the tire width and the side wall height. It’s simple math.

205mm width x .50 = 102.5mm side wall height.
225mm width x .50 = 112.5mm side wall height.

Difference of 10.5mm or .41in. There are 2 side walls in the total height making it .8in.

[barkerdm]

Wow. 3 people answering the same question at the same time.

[cwbaader]

No one bothered to look at the Hosier 225-45-15??? That is the tire that best fits the Spec E30.

There are those that bolt on a set of Hosiers and go ITS racing…let one/some of those talk about the differences.

NASA is for profit…it is not about the racers. Good luck getting anything changed while Toyo still pays to have their tire run. Hosier does have contingency programs with SCCA and NASA. Should be a short hop to add Spec E30 if the racers can talk management into it. Chuck

[turbo329is]

I guess I was the only one looking at 225/45/15 Toyos which are .1 inches smaller in diameter than the 205 and .8 smaller OD than the 225/50. The 225/50 is also a couple dollars more than the 225/45.

[Steve_D]

[quote=“Speedracer” post=62045]
Steve; where did you get the .8" taller? the tire would still be a 50 series sidewall…
[/quote]Toyo RA-1 data table

[Steve_D]

[quote=“cwbaader” post=62052]NASA is for profit…it is not about the racers.[/quote]When is the last time you raced with NASA?

[turbo329is]

http://www.philstireservice.com/pages/tires/tires_toyo_1.htm

225/45R15 22.9" $162
205/50R15 23.0" $149
225/50R15 23.7" $164

[Fooshe]

[quote=“cwbaader” post=62052]NASA is for profit…it is not about the racers.[/quote]When is the last time you raced with NASA?

I REALLY gotta disagree with you on this one. At least out in CA, Ryan and the NASA leaders out here are VERY in tune with the racers and go out of their way to work with us on what makes our series what it is. As for some issues like this, they are looking at every single thing they can to make things better. I may not agree with everything they do, but I will defend the people running the Pacific Region.

So if your region is not like this, come on over and run with us west coasters…we’d love to have you. Either that or have a sit down with your regional director and get things hashed out.

[Fooshe]

[quote=“turbo329is” post=62061]http://www.philstireservice.com/pages/tires/tires_toyo_1.htm

[size=5][color=#bb0000]225/45R15 22.9" $162[/color][/size]
205/50R15 23.0" $149
225/50R15 23.7" $164[/quote]

I think you can plainly see where I stand on this one…

Hell, Pro3 runs this size in the Pacific Northwest and they are 50 lbs lighter.