Hoosiers?

#61

The SM6 is the same exact tire as the R6…

Is the issue here, the fact that a Toyo needs to be shaved? or is it that most believe the Hoosier is a faster tire?

#62

[quote=“philstireservice” post=61822]The SM6 is the same exact tire as the R6…

Is the issue here, the fact that a Toyo needs to be shaved? or is it that most believe the Hoosier is a faster tire?[/quote]

Interesting I was under the impression it was a different compound. I wouldn’t be crazy about an R6 either.

#63

[quote=“Elephant4” post=61815][quote=“Fooshe” post=61808]
To what you are saying Simon, I agree. But you could say that about any tire with a tread. .[/quote]
True, that’s why I would prefer a tire with no tread. I consider the Nitto to have tread.

[color=#4400ff]You’re right, the Nitto does have a tread. No much of one, but they do have one. However, the tread blocks are huge.[/color]

How do you know this? Wasn’t the R888 like this? Molded to 6/32nds. I still shaved those. Have you tested a shaved NT-01?
I see where you’re going but I think you underestimate the competitive nature of the racers.

[color=#4400ff]With all due respect, I really am not underestimating their competativeness. In fact, I am counting on it. They spend their racing budget trying to get any speed they think they are getting and they will never find out that they are wasting money.

In fact, I have tested shaved NT01’s vs. unshaved when doing some practice and research for the 25hrs of Thunderhill. We tested them under 3 different situations: “Consistant” timing, “push” timing and “all out” timing. In speaking of those 50 laps before, I was giving a “general” number for when they felt like they did at the end of their life under “consistant” enduro conditions, which are clearly not sprint conditions.

While I don’t want to get into the reasearch, I can tell you that I would not waste my money on shaving them unless I am making one run for the national championship. [/color]

[quote=“Fooshe” post=61808]
All things cosidered, I could get that tire anywhere and not have worry that I will burn it up because it isn’t shaved. With an RA-1, one must shave them to race them or they risk chunking the tire up, way over heating them and ruining the tire for future use. [/quote]
There is nothing wrong with a full tread RA1, well except its slow, chunking is any internet myth. Have you actually run a set from full tread?

[color=#4400ff]I have first hand knowledge that in So Cal, that is NOT an internet rumor. And yes, I have run full depth otherwise I would not be able to say I have first hand knowledge.[/color]

[quote=“Fooshe” post=61808]
We ran an NT01 in the 25hrs of Thunderhill and got 9 straight hours out of the tires…248 laps of racing on them and they were about the same from lap 4 to the end. Yes, they got a bit quicker after about 50 laps, but what tire won’t? [/quote]
We aren’t running enduros, if the tire is faster shaved I’m going to shave them. Also a Hoosier isn’t going to get faster after new. The fact that you admitted it got faster after 50 laps means it would be best shaved and if you didn’t shave you would be playing the guessing game to get tires in the sweet spot for events like Nationals. I don’t like having to plan previous events to get tires “ready” for Nationals.

[quote=“Fooshe” post=61808]
The hoosiers are going to cycle out much more quickly and much more often, which raises the costs. Hell, even going to a 225/15 tire size RA-1 would be a better option than going to the Hoosiers…IMHO[/quote]

You don’t know this, the Spec Miata Hoosier is a different compound it is not like a regular Hoosier, so saying it will heat cycle out is pure speculation. I’m not saying the Nitto is a bad choice but you are naive to think that everyone will jut run them at 6/32nd and not shave them. I would like a tire that I don’t have to shave, run for 3 sessions to get in its sweet spot etc etc. I would put up with it if they were consistent and didn’t heat cycle out but that isn’t the case anymore. Maybe the Nitto is more like the RA1 used to be who knows. I don’t think the Hoosier would give me anymore life for sure but I do think it would give consistency and I could be fairly confident a new set would be fast. I bet I could get 2 race weekends out of the SM Hoosier, that would just be 8 competitive sessions. Thats what I get ouf the RA1 and its a juggling act guessing game trying to get the performance out of the current RA1. The Nitto might not be a bad choice but not for the reasons you are stating, its also made by Toyo I think.[/quote]

[color=#4400ff]I guess I would ask you the same question…how do you know the SM6’s are different. I have heard they are just stamped different for marketing and simple identification for technical insepctions.

Yes, Nitto is the sister company to Toyo, but the tire compounds are different and the tread blocks are totally different from both the RA-1 and the R888. I talked with a buddy who works within the tire industry (I won’t say were but let’s just say he would know the answer to this) and he told me that the NT01 would be a better choice over the RA-1. He also said that the research that he has access to shows that the Hoosiers would not yield nearly the same life that the NT01 would yield.

In either case, I like your approach and thought process. I think the fundamental issue I have with your position is that I don’t want to spend what you are talking about on tires for one season. And isn’t budget racing what Spec classes are partly about?[/color]

#64

A list of things I want clarity on…

Confirmation that Hoosier SM6 and R6 are same tire
Hoosier life is less than NT01 and RA1 (and by how much)
Hoosier heat cycle faster than NT01 and RA1 (and by how much)
NT01 is as fast or faster than RA1
NT01 is as fast unshaved as it is shaved - or at least is only 1-2 seconds slower at full tread
NT01 price point
NT01 life span is:
—1. Longer than the RA1
—2. More consistent than the RA1
—3. Prone to les heat cycling than the RA1
Is it true that the NT01 is specifically designed to work with a heavy car and cars with less than optimized suspensions?

OK, answer those questions with specific data and I’ll start listening to alternatives to the RA1.

Sorry, while Hoosiers are fast and a cool local cottage industry, I’d prefer BFG or anyone else inexpensive due to that ole price issue.

#65

[quote=“kgobey” post=61831]A list of things I want clarity on…

Confirmation that Hoosier SM6 and R6 are same tire
Hoosier life is less than NT01 and RA1 (and by how much)
Hoosier heat cycle faster than NT01 and RA1 (and by how much)
NT01 is as fast or faster than RA1
NT01 is as fast unshaved as it is shaved - or at least is only 1-2 seconds slower at full tread
NT01 price point
NT01 life span is:
—1. Longer than the RA1
—2. More consistent than the RA1
—3. Prone to les heat cycling than the RA1
Is it true that the NT01 is specifically designed to work with a heavy car and cars with less than optimized suspensions?

OK, answer those questions with specific data and I’ll start listening to alternatives to the RA1.

Sorry, while Hoosiers are fast and a cool local cottage industry, I’d prefer BFG or anyone else inexpensive due to that ole price issue.[/quote]

Well here are some answers.

SM6 and R6 are the same tire.

Hoosier SM6 $166 - BFG R1 $203

Shaved is faster sooner

No Nitto tire contingency or BFG for that matter or Nitto guy that comes to the track (well I sell Nitto’s so that would be me)

#66

I must say I’m a Nitto hater. I have nothing to base that on though. I didn’t think that they even made anything smaller than a 17 until just now and I had never heard of anyone actually trying to race with them. Also the tread blocks look like they would be horrible in the rain, so we would probably want to run something different for rains. I haven’t run the star specs, but due to the overwhelming love for them everyone who has used has I would definitely like to give them a try. I have been told that they are good all the way down to the cords and last 200+ autox’s and track days. I was told that by Chuck Mcmillion. You can find his email at the Nasa Midwest website as the de3/4 leader. I do see that he listed Dunlop as a sponsor so he may have other motives for selling everyone Dunlops. I’ve been a fan of Falken since I first started autocrossing in 2002 with the rt215. When I switched to the 615 I had heat problems but that has supposedly been fixed with the 615k. I also switch down from 225s to 215s when I went to the 615s but that couldn’t have been much of an issue. 225s are pretty much impossible to fit without a little bit of rubbing. With rolled fenders and custom spacers I still have a little front frame rail rubbing. Yes autox heats up tires faster than the track. If you don’t know that you’ve never autoxed.

With all that said I would be a big fan of a treadwear rule. High enough to limit the good tires to 3 or 4, and keep price per tire 120 or lower. If you buy all the tires to test with everyone is going to figure out what one you’re fastest with, so I don’t see anyone having an advantage by having the funds to buy every available tire. The first race after new compounds come out will probably be a guessing game anyway. I would like the freedom to run the fastest, longest lasting, best contingency tire available since this America after all. I’ll settle for the lowest dollars per weekend tire but how do we know that tire will last as long next year when we’re still stuck with it. Competition makes products and prices better. Toyo doesn’t have any as long as they hand NASA a big enough check they can sell us whatever garbage they want and switching to another brand will have the same effect. This is turning into a vote for Ron Paul speech so I better stop now.

I realize this thread is for entertainment purposes only since we have no say in the matter. Do the regional directors have a say in this?

#67

Anyone that can come up with a compelling argument has a say in the matter.

#68

I would still like to know if there was even a vote or not. Did the regional director’s have a chance to represent the racers or was the decision just handed down from NASA.

#69

[quote=“kgobey” post=61831]A list of things I want clarity on…

Confirmation that Hoosier SM6 and R6 are same tire. [color=#0000ff]It is…confirmed.[/color]
Hoosier life is less than NT01 and RA1 (and by how much) [color=#0000ff]It is…common fact[/color].
Hoosier heat cycle faster than NT01 and RA1 (and by how much) [color=#0000ff]Agian, common fact.[/color]
NT01 is as fast or faster than RA1 [color=#0000ff]You raced on them ya bonehead…you should know![/color]
NT01 is as fast unshaved as it is shaved - or at least is only 1-2 seconds slower at full tread [color=#0000ff]Within 1-2 seconds, not a problem.[/color]
NT01 price point [color=#0000ff]It is comparable to the RA-1, google it![/color]
NT01 life span is:
—1. Longer than the RA1 [color=#0000ff]Again, about the same but stickier[/color]
—2. More consistent than the RA1 [color=#0000ff]You’ve driven them brand new…you tell me.[/color]
—3. Prone to les heat cycling than the RA1 [color=#0000ff]Again, about the same[/color]
Is it true that the NT01 is specifically designed to work with a heavy car and cars with less than optimized suspensions? [color=#0000ff]No, but it does work very well on GT3’s [/color]:wink:

OK, answer those questions with specific data and I’ll start listening to alternatives to the RA1. [color=#0000ff]Do your own testing. If you want my data, you’re gonna pay for it.[/color]

Sorry, while Hoosiers are fast and a cool local cottage industry, I’d prefer BFG or anyone else inexpensive due to that ole price issue.[/quote]

#70

If I’m willing to pay extra for anything it’s for the local industry. If I’m going to buy japanese, korean, chinese anything the price reduction better be substantial. The Nitto’s aren’t any better than the Toyos, Falkens, Dunlops or Hankooks, so why the Nitto love fest? I would pay 109 for the Falken’s or 160 for the Hoosier’s because I’m kind of a fan of America. Sorry to be biased. Theres plenty of American things I hate to like Harley Davidson and General Motors so I need to make up for it.

#71

That was kind of ambiguous. I didn’t mean that I think Falkens are made in America, just that the price difference between a Japanese and American tire was justified. Korean and Chinese anything of course isn’t worth as much as either.

#72

[quote=“turbo329is” post=61840]I would still like to know if there was even a vote or not. Did the regional director’s have a chance to represent the racers or was the decision just handed down from NASA.[/quote] We were told a couple years ago that the series was free to go to a different tire if Carter and the regional directors decided to.

I don’t know Hoosiers from a hole-in-the-ground so I’ve been largely staying out of this tussle. But if someone made a convincing case for a cheaper tire that lasted as long as the RA1 (3 weekends), or a tire that cost the same but lasted 5 weekends, I’d be all for it.

I’ve said this before, but in my first two years I raced with used tires I was buying off ebay. I was getting a set for ~$150, getting them mounted for free and getting 2 race weekends out of them. That’s a tire cost of $75/weekend compared to the current cost of $200/weekend with the lame RA1 that we’ve been buying for the last 2yrs. That’s a helova increase.

#73

[quote=“Fooshe” post=61825]
Yes, Nitto is the sister company to Toyo, but the tire compounds are different and the tread blocks are totally different from both the RA-1 and the R888. I talked with a buddy who works within the tire industry (I won’t say were but let’s just say he would know the answer to this) and he told me that the NT01 would be a better choice over the RA-1. He also said that the research that he has access to shows that the Hoosiers would not yield nearly the same life that the NT01 would yield.

In either case, I like your approach and thought process. I think the fundamental issue I have with your position is that I don’t want to spend what you are talking about on tires for one season. And isn’t budget racing what Spec classes are partly about?[/quote]

You make some good points, and I do not know that the SM Hoosier is a different compound I thought I read that somewhere but it seems it is not the case. It almost sounds like the Nitto is what the RA1 used to be in which case I would be all for it.

#74

You’re in a German car series racing on Japanese tires most likely burning Middle Eastern Oil, maybe Canadian. Patriotic. :whistle:

(sorry, couldn’t resist :stuck_out_tongue: )

#75

You wouldn’t want any kind of street tire to race on. World Challenge did it years ago. They would get totally destroyed faster than a bad driver/setup on a race tire.

I think it’s an enterprising idea to have the class pick their own tire through actual hands on testing, although Spec Miata did it ( tire availability/options are not what you may think). But you would have to ask the manufacturers to provide tires for testing or buy them. Then would come the hard part - designing a contingency program that makes both sides happy. Also there would have to be an adequate supply available nationwide and track side support (maybe). Remember it has to be a win win situation for both parties. A separate tire for one class and a small quantity in the overall picture of things to boot, is not an attractive option for a large tire manufacturer.

#76

Spec Miata has an advantage over us, Miata’s are wonderful on tires and even wear and Hoosiers are very good partners… Spec Miata can also take advantage of the tire while our less than optimal suspensions will wear them out too fast and unevenly.

NT01 and RA1 (and BFG’s old R1 and the old Kumho VictorRacer) were designed for showroom stock cars and don’t mind suspensions like ours.

#77

[quote=“Fooshe” post=61841][quote=“kgobey” post=61831]A list of things I want clarity on…

Confirmation that Hoosier SM6 and R6 are same tire. [color=#0000ff]It is…confirmed.[/color]

[color=#ff0000]Pretty colors… OK, Phil says so… Makes sense… I used to use these in Autocross, they are WONDERFUL but once they are cycled, they are money grendades… I love them, and won’t use them.[/color]

Hoosier life is less than NT01 and RA1 (and by how much) [color=#0000ff]It is…common fact[/color].

[color=#ff0000]It’s the “how much” because that goes to economy of scale… I mean, if it’s $50 more per tire AND wears out 2x as fast, then the tire is in effect $160 more expensive EACH![/color]

Hoosier heat cycle faster than NT01 and RA1 (and by how much) [color=#0000ff]Agian, common fact.[/color]

[color=#ff0000]See my comment… The “How Much” part is as important to me.[/color]

NT01 is as fast or faster than RA1 [color=#0000ff]You raced on them ya bonehead…you should know![/color]

[color=#ff0000]OK I confess… I raced on them and they were much better than the RA1… They made less noise, had great feedback and when they broke loose were easy to control… Like racing on elstic bands as Seth Scally said to me afterwards… Perfect description… I liked them a lot, I shall use them on my street/track cars in the future[/color]

NT01 is as fast unshaved as it is shaved - or at least is only 1-2 seconds slower at full tread [color=#0000ff]Within 1-2 seconds, not a problem.[/color]
NT01 price point [color=#0000ff]It is comparable to the RA-1, google it![/color]

[color=#ff0000]yeah, that was a dumb question[/color]

NT01 life span is:
—1. Longer than the RA1 [color=#0000ff]Again, about the same but stickier[/color]
[color=#ff0000]OK, then I like them… but I have a feeling they last longer, which goes to the cost per lap factor that I mentioned above[/color]

—2. More consistent than the RA1 [color=#0000ff]You’ve driven them brand new…you tell me.[/color]
[color=#ff0000]Not sure, it was dark and went blind, I was nervous driving your car and consistency wasn’t possible while I was moving around in your seat too much… Sorry.[/color]

—3. Prone to les heat cycling than the RA1 [color=#0000ff]Again, about the same[/color]
[color=#ff0000]They were better IMO, but I was looking for opinions from others[/color]

Is it true that the NT01 is specifically designed to work with a heavy car and cars with less than optimized suspensions? [color=#0000ff]No, but it does work very well on GT3’s [/color]:wink:
[color=#ff0000]Hah! Can I drive THAT car now??? no???[/color]

OK, answer those questions with specific data and I’ll start listening to alternatives to the RA1. [color=#0000ff]Do your own testing. If you want my data, you’re gonna pay for it.[/color]
[color=#ff0000]I pay for it every time I have to listen to you :o ;)[/color]
.[/quote][/quote]

#78

[quote=“kgobey” post=61850]Spec Miata has an advantage over us, Miata’s are wonderful on tires and even wear and Hoosiers are very good partners… Spec Miata can also take advantage of the tire while our less than optimal suspensions will wear them out too fast and unevenly.

NT01 and RA1 (and BFG’s old R1 and the old Kumho VictorRacer) were designed for showroom stock cars and don’t mind suspensions like ours.[/quote]

I got it…325 bodies on Miata chassis’s ! (the BMW body probably weighs as much as the entire Miata - lol)

The old R1’s and Victoracers were rocks…old technology. Yep they wore like iron.

#79

[quote=“philstireservice” post=61853]The old R1’s and Victoracers were rocks…old technology. Yep they wore like iron.[/quote]They were very good for IT cars… I miss them…

#80

[quote=“Elephant4” post=61845][quote=“Fooshe” post=61825]
Yes, Nitto is the sister company to Toyo, but the tire compounds are different and the tread blocks are totally different from both the RA-1 and the R888. I talked with a buddy who works within the tire industry (I won’t say were but let’s just say he would know the answer to this) and he told me that the NT01 would be a better choice over the RA-1. He also said that the research that he has access to shows that the Hoosiers would not yield nearly the same life that the NT01 would yield.

In either case, I like your approach and thought process. I think the fundamental issue I have with your position is that I don’t want to spend what you are talking about on tires for one season. And isn’t budget racing what Spec classes are partly about?[/quote]

You make some good points, and I do not know that the SM Hoosier is a different compound I thought I read that somewhere but it seems it is not the case. It almost sounds like the Nitto is what the RA1 used to be in which case I would be all for it.[/quote]

Exactly! From what I am told, the compound of the NT01 is more like the old RA-1 with a much more aggressive tread block so they can be used in rain. Personally, I don’t think they are worth squat in the rain. I would take the RA-1 any day, but that is what you get with that kind of tread pattern.